Why do so many Americans reject socialism?

[jason73]

america sure found the money for nuclear weapons and a war on drugs. money isnt an issue.how the money is being spent is the issue.it is not a matter of having to raise taxes but of wisely spending the tax money the already collect.

 

[ThatOneDude]

I just checked my last pay stub. I get paid monthly.

my check before taxes = $4288

taxes taken off = $795

OK so I crunched some number based on my job from last year, I have bumped up a tax bracket or two so this won't be relevant this year. But I paid 12.66% in taxes last year. This year I'm sure will be different but I'm also fortunate enough to not have to pay for any of my insurance any longer minus some Co pays. So for me personally I like the system now, yayyyyyy 1%

 

[ThatOneDude]

So you'd rather pay to protect Western Europe from Russia than get free healthcare for every American. Thanks

It's not free, nothing is

 

[member 3289]

So you'd rather pay to protect Western Europe from Russia than get free healthcare for every American. Thanks

Straw man

 

[Hauler]

I understand not trusting the government with your money. That makes a lot of sense. What doesn't make sense is that taxes have to be raised. Other countries with similar tax levels manage it. Why would taxes have to be raised?

If the government was able to take an honest look at spending and address the fiscally irresponsible programs, taxes probably wouldn't need to be raised.

But I want you to read that sentence out loud and ask yourself if you really think that would happen. Or do you think they'd just ask for more money?

 

[member 3289]

I understand not trusting the government with your money. That makes a lot of sense. What doesn't make sense is that taxes have to be raised. Other countries with similar tax levels manage it. Why would taxes have to be raised?

Apples and oranges. Too many variables to effectively compare and say that it is possible without raising taxes.

I personally believe that it is not.

 

[maurice]

To answer the question in the OP, it wouldn't be possible to keep the tax rate the same and have free healthcare and free university education.

Taxes would have to be raised, and the honest truth is that most Americans trust themselves to spend their money much more than they do the government.

All of this. Most American politicians are controlled by corrupting business influences. Their fingerprints are all over the recent healthcare reforms. If I could wave a magic wand and create ideal socialized medicine in the US, I'd do it in a minute.

 

[Leigh]

It's not free, nothing is

Relatively it is. Pay less, get healthcare

 

[IschKabibble]

Apples and oranges. Too many variables to effectively compare and say that it is possible without raising taxes.

I personally believe that it is not.

Taxes will go up, but the idea is the offset will still benefit you as you'll no longer be paying health insurance premiums. However, as @Alco Hauler suggests, easier said than done.

 

[ThatOneDude]

Apples and oranges. Too many variables to effectively compare and say that it is possible without raising taxes.

I personally believe that it is not.

You are right, it's not if we stick to the status quo, changes would need to be made, I think some would be worth it, some not.

 

[Robbie Hart]

The UK has free health care. This includes visits to the doctor, operations, A&E etc. There is a fee for prescriptions (about £7 I think) but if you are under 18 or unemployed, you are exempt.

Taxes on earnings here are:
£0 - £10,600: no tax
£10,600 - £42,385: 20% tax
£42,385 - £160,600: 40% tax
over £160,600: 45% tax

Pensions are tax deductible, so I personally whack a shit load of cash into my pension to get me onto the lower tax rate.

There are other taxes. Sales taxes, tax on petrol etc is typically higher than the US I believe. But for free healthcare and heavily subsidised education (mine was free), it's a decent trade off.

i pay national insurance which is in addition to the tax you mentioned Leigh, so it's not really free healthcare.

 

[Leigh]

Straw man

No, it's a direct reflection of your comment.

Apples and oranges. Too many variables to effectively compare and say that it is possible without raising taxes.

I personally believe that it is not.

Agree, the systems are very different and it's not a simple process by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Yossarian]

But remember, I haven't been to a doctor in about eight years. And now that the Affordable Care Act was passed, it is mandated that you carry a private insurance policy, or you get fined by the government...

It is extortion. Not insurance, not with $6000 co-pay, out of pocket, or whatever cute term we can attach to it. Americans pay the most ridiculous premiums for the most ridiculous coverage.

Having lived in Europe for 25 years and see what universal healthcare can be like, this here in the US I call extortion. I am more than happy to pay a ridiculous amount on my premium, but then I want to be insured to the tits, NO CO-PAY. Healthcare, much like the prison system is an industry designed to generate money and jobs no matter what the concequences. Forgetting what it was there for in the first place.

But they wanted to fine me for last year. So glad I'm not a US citizen yet, because I could tell them to go fuck off. After a year being herrassed by text, phonecalls, e-mails to encourage healthcare insurance participation.

 

[Punch]

Two simple questions:
1) should your taxes fund a national healthcare system?
2) should your taxes subsidise higher education?

Even most moderate and politically neutral Americans would answer no to these questions, despite the fact that most would be far better off.

I'm not proposing a tax increase, BTW. Just a redistribution of tax spending.

Why is that? Residual fear of "communists" from the cold war? Would social programs like these work in the US?

There is quite a large class divide in the US, with Jim Crow laws still existing until the 1960s etc. Maybe the adjustments need to be more gradual.

I consider myself a moderate politically neutral individual and i would answer yes to both of those questions.

 

[Punch]

I agree, the VA systems is the only government run healthcare I've dealt with as a civilian. If how that is run is any indication of how a single payer system would work in our society then no thanks. It's an absolute mess.

Now I do like the idea of a single payer system IF we could get it to work here. I think the current Healthcare system is fucked and obamacare didn't do much outside of raise people's insurance premiums.

The VA is corrupt as fuck.

Gut that system, and don't run another one like it imo.

 

[IschKabibble]

But they wanted to fine me for last year. So glad I'm not a US citizen yet, because I could tell them to go fuck off. After a year being herrassed by text, phonecalls, e-mails to encourage healthcare insurance participation.

They actively sought you out for registration? How convenient of them to pass a bill disguised as progressive healthcare reform when in reality it was just an attempt to strong-arm uninsured American into buying into the system. Unreal.

 

[IschKabibble]

VA is not a good analogy, imo. Those hospitals are government-run. This would be totally different. You'd be covered by Medicaid, but still seek treatment at private clinics.

The big question is, how many doctors will be willing to accept the lower payouts from Medicaid patients if a healthy private insurance market still remains?

 

[Punch]

and he's a dick about it.

i'd like to slip him my left on principle for how far he takes being an asshole.

 

[ThatOneDude]

It is extortion. Not insurance, not with $6000 co-pay, out of pocket, or whatever cute term we can attach to it. Americans pay the most ridiculous premiums for the most ridiculous coverage.

Having lived in Europe for 25 years and see what universal healthcare can be like, this here in the US I call extortion. I am more than happy to pay a ridiculous amount on my premium, but then I want to be insured to the tits, NO CO-PAY. Healthcare, much like the prison system is an industry designed to generate money and jobs no matter what the concequences. Forgetting what it was there for in the first place.

But they wanted to fine me for last year. So glad I'm not a US citizen yet, because I could tell them to go fuck off. After a year being herrassed by text, phonecalls, e-mails to encourage healthcare insurance participation.

Can you post example of this, I'm super curious how thay whole thing works.

 

[Punch]

One quick off topic, what is people's problem with Michael Moore. Did he lie? Cheat? What is it?

I'm not going to say he's wrong about what he says, because a lot of it has merit, however sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it that catches you an ass whipping.

 

[Punch]

Informative stuff, thanks guys. I'm trying to VU but I'm only limited

Yes

The guy isn't right about everything he says, that's for sure.

 

[Sweets]

I'm not going to say he's wrong about what he says, because a lot of it has merit, however sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it that catches you an ass whipping.

Hahaa a plus in my book, unless it's Richard Dawkins pompous.

 

[Yossarian]

Spoken like a true commie.

To answer the question in the OP, it wouldn't be possible to keep the tax rate the same and have free healthcare and free university education.

Taxes would have to be raised, and the honest truth is that most Americans trust themselves to spend their money much more than they do the government.

The US government is not to be blindly trusted, that is for sure. But the biggest fuck overs in American history are done by private companies. The banks, the fed, lenders, all private companies... so for us it is between a rock and a hard place. So I understand your sentiment, but I think we tend to forget that corporate America is just as corrupt, if not more, than the government. The government at least can be "somewhat" held accountable. So the money that we do trust ourselves to spend more than the Government, does then go to companies such as Enron, Adelphia, Bear Sterns, Lehman Brothers, and AIG. Our money ends up in a corrupt cess-pool none the less. I can see why people scream for regulation.

 

[Punch]

Hahaa a plus in my book, unless it's Richard Dawkins pompous.

Never heard of him, i'll look him up.

 

[Punch]

@Sweets Oh, wait i recognize the picture. He's a hypocritical zealot. How are you gonna be pissy about people impressing belief structures on you and then turn around and try to do the same damn thing?