Machida´s bottom game...

[nni]

...is Shit. He rarely ends up there, but whenever it happens he looks helpless.

The guy has been training BJJ with some killers for over a decade, but he doesn't seem to be at the level he should.

Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit, but the way he got run over by Rockhold was pretty telling.

 

[Deleted member 1]

but the way he got run over by Rockhold was pretty telling.

I agree he didn't look competitive there. But maybe this just says hat Rockhold is THAT good at 185. Luke's grind would give everyone problems last night, if not to that extent. And lets not forget that a punch rocked machida, led to some great GnP, and Machida didn't look fresh standing going into the second.

I think its hard to say. His style is great if you give him time to open, but Luke showed what we've seen before. Put the pressure on, dont' give space, don't let Machida earn that momentum.

I think the rather bad example on the ground was a culmination of all those things.

 

[La Paix]

Its definetly not his strongest tool but I think last nights fight was more of a testimemt to Luke's arsenal as opposed to Lyotos weakness.

Think about the times Luke has gone to the ground and how badly he's made his opponents look. Tim B isn't a title contented but he's known for being a very strong, powerful guy whos pretty tough and Luke twisted him up like he was a weight class below. Head triangle with a double wrist lock, don't see that often.

Bisping is another example who's not deadly on the ground but is pretty good at escaping and getting back to his feet if he's grounded. One arm guillotine? Can't think of another one of those at a high level match up. Again Luke is very skilled but its not like he's sneaking in these super tricky setups and traps that nobody sees coming, it looks like he's a kid in a sandbox manipulating GI Joes into shitty positions for fun.

Don't forget that the ground isn't anything that he picked up recently.

• 2007 IBJJF World Jiu-Jitsu Championships Purple Belt No-Gi Gold Medalist
• 2007 IBJJF World Jiu-Jitsu Championships Blue Belt Gold Medalist

Last nights win puts Luke at 14-2 and sub's seems to be he method of choice when finishing.

Professional record breakdown
16 matches 14 wins 2 losses
By knockout W-3 L-2
By submission W-9 L-0
By decision W-2 L-0

I agree that Lyoto isn't too deadly on the ground but as I said above last night shouldn't be used as an example to call his ground game shit IMO but that Luke is just that good. As @Splinty said above that choke came after a first round beating that ended in a big elbow to the head that left Machida slow to get up and return to his corner. When he came out to start the second he was visibly slower and looked to be on his way out already.

 

[Zeph]

Rockhold's striking is so good, we forget it is probably the weakest part of his game. He is just so sharp in the transitions that he makes good grapplers look bad. Once you're in a bad situation, he just never lets you regain any footing, it is really impressive.

As for Machida, he is 36, slowing down, and was the noticeably smaller man. Rockhold just really is a new breed of middleweight, him and Weidman, they are both massive middleweights. If they had started when Machida started they would probably have debuted at heavyweight, while Machida, if he was coming up now, would likely be at welterweight.

 

[D241]

OP, I think Lyoto getting tagged on the feet early on was the big difference. I don't recall seeing Machida on his back much at all in any of his fights. This was the most I've seen it, what do you recall about Machida's back time?

 

[Wild]

I agree he didn't look competitive there. But maybe this just says hat Rockhold is THAT good at 185. Luke's grind would give everyone problems last night, if not to that extent. And lets not forget that a punch rocked machida, led to some great GnP, and Machida didn't look fresh standing going into the second.

I think its hard to say. His style is great if you give him time to open, but Luke showed what we've seen before. Put the pressure on, dont' give space, don't let Machida earn that momentum.

I think the rather bad example on the ground was a culmination of all those things.

Agreed. Luke is fucking MASSIVE for 185. Shit, he dwarfs Cormier for fucks sake. How he makes that weight is beyond me, but I bet locking up with him in the octagon is a reality check from hell for his opponents. Probably strong as hell. That's what makes the Weidman match-up so interesting. They're both big 185ers with great jits...Chris has the wrestling advantage and Luke the striking. Both have great length and use their range well. I can't wait for that fight...and yes @TeamSerraLongo, I'm looking ahead. Chris breaks Vitor.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

I wonder what Luke weighs on fight night?

That aside, Machida was lightning at 205 and I suspect at 185 guys are just as fast. That loss of speed makes a difference.

 

[Zeph]

Agreed. Luke is fucking MASSIVE for 185. Shit, he dwarfs Cormier for fucks sake. How he makes that weight is beyond me, but I bet locking up with him in the octagon is a reality check from hell for his opponents. Probably strong as hell. That's what makes the Weidman match-up so interesting. They're both big 185ers with great jits...Chris has the wrestling advantage and Luke the striking. Both have great length and use their range well. I can't wait for that fight...and yes @TeamSerraLongo, I'm looking ahead. Chris breaks Vitor.

Rockhold has better kicks, but Weidman has better boxing. Luke's check hook is money though, so it will be interesting if Weidman can pressure him. I think he will be able to though, since Rockhold moves straight back in a line, similar to Machida infact, and Weidman pressured Machida. The way Weidman cuts off the cage, constantly staying just in range is awe inspiring.

 

[Zeph]

I wonder what Luke weighs on fight night?

That aside, Machida was lightning at 205 and I suspect at 185 guys are just as fast. That loss of speed makes a difference.

Between fights I reckon he walks around 220-225. Diets to 210 and cuts 25 for fights. That would be my guess.

 

[nni]

OP, I think Lyoto getting tagged on the feet early on was the big difference. I don't recall seeing Machida on his back much at all in any of his fights. This was the most I've seen it, what do you recall about Machida's back time?

I remember Machida hitting Luke several times in the early going, then Luke got a sort of glancing shot that made Machida stumble to the mat. Did Luke hit Machida before that?

I was mostly talking about Rd. 1 btw. Machida was done after that elbow at the end of the round.

But yeah, Luke is a high, high level grappler. He beat Jacaré in a decision a few years ago, after being off for a long time.

I just wish that the Belfort squash fight happened already, so we can see Weidman against these real killers of the division.

 

[Greek777]

In the UFC Rockhold has beaten

Phillipou
Bisping
Boetsch
Lyoto

He has done all of them impressively. One top 5 guy. But hey, Vitor, Anderson, Lyoto. They are all jokes, they are nothing, they are not "killers". Nah, they never did anything. None of them were champions or anything.

BTW not trying to be a dick but a lot of people are so quick to say "this is shit, this sucks, he sucks, this guy is a joke, this is a squash" or things 1000x more disrespectful (not on this forum thankfully, everyone here is really cool)

Like Birdwatcher said. I think what you saw last night had a lot more to do with how good Luke is, and not Lyoto being "shit" at anything

 

[Greek777]

Rockhold has better kicks, but Weidman has better boxing. Luke's check hook is money though, so it will be interesting if Weidman can pressure him. I think he will be able to though, since Rockhold moves straight back in a line, similar to Machida infact, and Weidman pressured Machida. The way Weidman cuts off the cage, constantly staying just in range is awe inspiring.

Do you have any gifs or vids of Rockhold landing a check hook? I'm not saying he hasn't, just can't recall it. That's one of my favorite techniques ever, and I feel like they're really rare to see in MMA because of how bad most guy's boxing is.

I've seen every Rockhold fight since he started on Challengers but I also have not gone back and rewatched a whole lot of em.

Hasn't Ro0ckhpold spent some time training at Jeff Mayweather's gym? I swear I saw pics or vids of him doing so.. but I just tried to Google it and the only things coming up are Luke's comments about Mayweather/Pacquiao. Anyway, that would defintely be the place to learn a perfect check hook. Jeff and Roger both had a good one, particularly Roger.

Of course... Floyd has a pretty famous one too lol. One of the greatest ever landed in my opinion. Considering the fact he was so close to the ropes and easily could've fucked up the way he moved away. That's a life time of training and knowing your way around the ring right there.

Holy fuck May/Pac is TWO WEEKS AWAY! How is that possible?

 

[nni]

In the UFC Rockhold has beaten

Phillipou
Bisping
Boetsch
Lyoto

He has done all of them impressively. One top 5 guy. But hey, Vitor, Anderson, Lyoto. They are all jokes, they are nothing, they are not "killers". Nah, they never did anything. None of them were champions or anything.

BTW not trying to be a dick but a lot of people are so quick to say "this is shit, this sucks, he sucks, this guy is a joke, this is a squash" or things 1000x more disrespectful (not on this forum thankfully, everyone here is really cool)

Like Birdwatcher said. I think what you saw last night had a lot more to do with how good Luke is, and not Lyoto being "shit" at anything

No offense taken. I was being facetious with calling him "shit". It was more in the sense that his standup is so amazing, and he has great takedown defense/offense, but looks kinda awkward on his back, or even in top position.

I love watching Lyoto's fights. I mean, he stood with some monsters at LHW and held his own against all of them, except for JJ (and even in that fight he threatened more than most JJ's opponents). I was surprised by how easily Rockhold manhandled him, especially since I didn't think Machida was rocked when he first got on the ground.

In summary, I was exaggerating when I called Machida's bottom game shit, and I don't think that Lyoto, Anderson and Vitor are not killers. I just think they are old and past their prime, and with regards to Vitor, should have had to fight a top contender after coming off TRT.

 

[Greek777]

Hey no worries at all man. I was also shocked at how good Luke looked. I mean even Jones didn't do that to Lyoto. They were competitive for the first round. After the first two mins or less in this fight.. Rockhold looked like a man beating up a boy. Lyoto looked helpless.

In Luke's last few fights it has blown my mind how insane his grappling has looked. Not only on another level than his opponent's, but his transitions, subs, etc just look beyond MOST guys in MMA period. It's ridiculous. Remember when he pulled that inverted triangle? And man, the way he finished Bisping - that kick, straight into a 1 handed submission. When do you ever see something like that, a back to back display of skill in both standup AND grappling, within seconds of each other, to hurt and finish a guy off?

When I really sit and think about it, it's crazy. The MW division is by far my favorite for the last year or so.

 

[nni]

It's been a while since I watched the Jacaré fight, but I remember Luke completely holding his own in the grappling as well. And that was coming off a big layoff. He should definitely get the next title shot.

Having said that, I just realized Jacaré is 35, maybe he should get the nod, based on age .

HOPEFULLY Weidman doesn't get injured again and can fight in July or August at the latest.

 

[Ministry of Silly Walks]

Do you have any gifs or vids of Rockhold landing a check hook? I'm not saying he hasn't, just can't recall it. That's one of my favorite techniques ever, and I feel like they're really rare to see in MMA because of how bad most guy's boxing is.

I've seen every Rockhold fight since he started on Challengers but I also have not gone back and rewatched a whole lot of em.

Hasn't Ro0ckhpold spent some time training at Jeff Mayweather's gym? I swear I saw pics or vids of him doing so.. but I just tried to Google it and the only things coming up are Luke's comments about Mayweather/Pacquiao. Anyway, that would defintely be the place to learn a perfect check hook. Jeff and Roger both had a good one, particularly Roger.

around 4:10 of the video. dropped costa coming in like mayweather did to rikky hatton, but that was a ko.

 

[WoodenPupa]

Holy fuck May/Pac is TWO WEEKS AWAY! How is that possible?

I swear the fight was announced like two weeks ago. By contrast, Conor-Aldo is still freaking 3 months away. I hate waiting for big fights. It's prematurely aged me.

 

[Greek777]

around 4:10 of the video. dropped costa coming in like mayweather did to rikky hatton, but that was a ko.

Very nice... it's extremely impressive when a guy can land with power while moving backwards. I'd say that's just more of a regular hook though, (while retreating, which makes it amazing).The check hook requires a pivot on the lead leg, with the back leg cutting an angle off to the side - enabling a fighter to throw the punch and get out of the line of fire extremely fast in one simultaneous motion. Amazing technique.

Actually, surprising considering the guy who pulled it off, but Mac Danzig landed a beautiful one to KO Joe Stevenson a couple years back. I haven't seen it since t aired, but I am pretty sure it was a check hook. The thing that distinguishes a check hook from a regular one (even when walking backwards) is the angle like I said. BTW not trying to discredit Luke in any way. That hook to Costa was beautiful even though it breaks my heart to see a Greek fighter lose lol.

A guy who actually has tons f power moving backwards is Gonzaga. Crazy right? Lots of people think he is all power and no technique, but they are wrong. I just bumped a thread I made of him with a ton of gifs including some where he is doing just that, dropping Shane Carwin while moving backwards, as well as KOing Shawn Jordan. Beautiful.

 

[Greek777]

I swear the fight was announced like two weeks ago. By contrast, Conor-Aldo is still freaking 3 months away. I hate waiting for big fights. It's prematurely aged me.

Dude, I know exactly how you feel! Strange because I also feel like the wait for May/Pac has FLOWN by. Maybe it's because we've all waited for years, literally, so the last couple months are nothing in comparison.

The next 3-4 months.. Man.. we are in for some absolutely amazing fights.. in ALL combat sports.. Just wow.

 

[Zeph]

UFC Fight Night Sydney Judo Chop: The Southpaw Hook of Luke Rockhold - Bloody Elbow

There is a whole article on Luke's check hook. Holloway was also landing a check hook with both hands against Swanson saturday.

 

[Ministry of Silly Walks]

Very nice... it's extremely impressive when a guy can land with power while moving backwards. I'd say that's just more of a regular hook though, (while retreating, which makes it amazing).The check hook requires a pivot on the lead leg, with the back leg cutting an angle off to the side - enabling a fighter to throw the punch and get out of the line of fire extremely fast in one simultaneous motion. Amazing technique.

in the gif you posted, mayweather didn't even angle off until until after they both landed. his rear leg was actually in front of him after, so he did a poor job according to this.

 

[WoodenPupa]

Dude, I know exactly how you feel! Strange because I also feel like the wait for May/Pac has FLOWN by. Maybe it's because we've all waited for years, literally, so the last couple months are nothing in comparison.

The next 3-4 months.. Man.. we are in for some absolutely amazing fights.. in ALL combat sports.. Just wow.

Despite all we can criticize Zuffa for, we have to admit we've been treated to a shit-ton of great matchups over the last few years. The distribution of those fights over multiple networks and shows/formats isn't to my liking, but when a good fight starts you forget all about that shit.

Very accurate point about the Pac/PBF bout. We've already waited what, 7 years? I can't believe it's a couple of weeks away. I have to eat some crow, because after 2012 or thereabouts I thought it would never happen. Sometimes you feel lucky to be wrong.

 

[Greek777]

in the gif you posted, mayweather didn't even angle off until until after they both landed. his rear leg was actually in front of him after, so he did a poor job according to this.

What? Sorry dude that's a perfect example of a check hook. I may have done a poor job at describing it to a tee. But what Mayweather did is a lot closer to a check hook than Luke's. I was not arguing ,just stating a fact. Luke was just backing up, that's it. Look up a tutorial of the technique.

 

[Greek777]

You're watching Floyd's entire body. It's his feet and legs that pivot/move, while simultaneously with the punch, that makes it a check hook. Then his body moves out of the way directly after it lands. The actual act of moving out of the way with your entire body comes after you set it up with your feet, which is done at the same time you throw the punch.

When throwing the punch, he is already moving his legs to cut the angle and as soon as it lands he is out of the way. His legs are already in position for him to sneak off to the side at an angle the second the punch lands. What Luke did was moving backwards. He did not cut off to the side by pivoting his feet at the same time as throwing a punch. That's in no way talking shit. It's just a different thing than a check hook.

But I dunno, sorry man, I am just not wrong on this. This is one of my favorite techniques and I have spent hours practicing it. A lot of hours.

Maybe I did a "poor job" of it, sorry. Just trying to share insight. Certainly seems like I am pain on the ass on here to most lately

 

[Ministry of Silly Walks]

What? Sorry dude that's a perfect example of a check hook. I may have done a poor job at describing it to a tee. But what Mayweather did is a lot closer to a check hook than Luke's. I was not arguing ,just stating a fact. Luke was just backing up, that's it. Look up a tutorial of the technique.

i've looked at a few different examples now