Race discussion with Big.Thirsty

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Leigh

Engineer
Pro Fighter
Jan 26, 2015
10,925
21,023
That's a bit disingenuous, you decided not to read something and want me to paraphrase it for you. I told you why I'm not comfortable doing that.
Well, you've specifically said YOU can tell the difference between populations. I'm asking you how.

I haven't asked you to paraphrase. I'm fine with you quoting it directly but I'm not sifting through all the articles posted to prove other people's points.
 
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1031

Guest
I'm asking you how.
It's a combination of things really and I can't describe it.
Although I am not able to articulate the mechanism or process by which this happens, the fact of the matter is billions of people throughout history have been able to do it.


Y'know, the idea of a "social construct" is in and of itself a social construct, it's madness.
 
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1

1031

Guest
Scientific definition requires precision.

Thats the problem you're having right now with defining "race" yes?

Trust me ive been there before myself
oh I agree, totally in fact. But to me anyhow, it sounds more like a limitation of language and process (*a process to identify quantify differences*) than *one of* nonexistence.

*edited*
 
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Leigh

Engineer
Pro Fighter
Jan 26, 2015
10,925
21,023
It's a combination of things really and I can't describe it.
Although I am not able to articulate the mechanism or process by which this happens, the fact of the matter is billions of people throughout history are able to do it.


Y'know, the idea of a "social construct" is in and of itself a social construct, it's madness.
Ok, well in that case, I'm going to challenge your assertion. Again, not being rude but I don't think you can accurately differentiate between the groups you mentioned.
 

Disciplined Galt

Disciplina et Frugalis
First 100
Jan 15, 2015
26,030
30,790
Right. So a social construct can be used to tell people apart. Historically, most Smith's had fair skin. Does that mean that surnames are physically real?
Names are definitely real. You should see the reaction when I call students by their parents name. Can't engineer that.
 

Disciplined Galt

Disciplina et Frugalis
First 100
Jan 15, 2015
26,030
30,790
Right. So a social construct can be used to tell people apart. Historically, most Smith's had fair skin. Does that mean that surnames are physically real?
Names are definitely real. You should see the reaction when I call students by their parents name. Can't engineer that.
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
12,435
22,917
I guess it's all social once we inject language into things but to me it seems like either an attempt to obscure or a debilitating need for precision.
You've hit the nail on the head. When we use terms like "physical basis" or "scientific," precision is absolutely required. One can generalize ethnicity or race based on physical features as a useful tool, just as one can explain the relationship between a nucleus and electrons using the orbital model, but that's a representational model, not a scientifically accurate one.

An excess of melanin may tell you generally that a person may be non-European, but it's not a reliable measure that compensates adequately for biodiversity, e.g. is an albino non-African? Is a Bengali African?

The reason race is socially constructed is because culture and climate play a heavy role in the development of behavior and even phenotypical changes. What value we assign to those differences is solely social in nature.
 

Kingtony87

Batman
Feb 2, 2016
6,524
8,905
my point is if transportation never existed, climate change never caused migration it would be rather easy to explain the differences in various race groups
You've kinda just proved his point here. If there ever were exclusive differences between different racial groups they've long since been so mingled that you can no longer truly explain their differences. Not with any difinitiveness. Therefore making the race of today more of a social structure then a biological one.
 

IschKabibble

zero
First 100
Jan 15, 2015
16,964
22,893
The reason race is socially constructed is because culture and climate play a heavy role in the development of behavior and even phenotypical changes. What value we assign to those differences is solely social in nature.
But if we can isolate and identify said changes by genetic testing, wouldn't that prove to be more than just a social science?
 
1

1031

Guest
The reason race is socially constructed is because culture and climate play a heavy role in the development of behavior and even phenotypical changes. What value we assign to those differences is solely social in nature.
I'm not sure of what you mean by the term "value" tbh. :/

Overall, I think we agree more than anything. It's just that if we choose to be precise then it's like measuring the coastline i.e. the more precise you get, the longer the coastline becomes unto it being infinite.

All in all this has been a good one.
 
1

1031

Guest
Ok, well in that case, I'm going to challenge your assertion. Again, not being rude but I don't think you can accurately differentiate between the groups you mentioned.
Can you think of a probable reason I would write that unless it were generally true in my experience?
 

Lord Vutulaki

Banned
Jan 16, 2015
16,651
5,934
But if we can isolate and identify said changes by genetic testing, wouldn't that prove to be more than just a social science?
bro the problem was never that there wasnt genes the problem is with the very concept of race itself.

Under the term "race" as is widely accepted today, Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are considered "one race". Thats so wrong in terms of genetics, history, linguistics, origin etc etc
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
12,435
22,917
But if we can isolate and identify said changes by genetic testing, wouldn't that prove to be more than just a social science?
But we can't. We can only reasonably approximate trends. We can say "gene X likely caused a flaring of the nostrils in population group C." Meanwhile, a continent away, gene Y could have caused a similar effect in population group F. So are they now the same race? If so, what is the genetic marker of said race, gene X or Y?
 

Leigh

Engineer
Pro Fighter
Jan 26, 2015
10,925
21,023
As you erroneously believe it to be false.
Well we can do a test and see who is correct. My guess is that you will realise the language you are using is not adequately explaining your point.
 

Lord Vutulaki

Banned
Jan 16, 2015
16,651
5,934
Is that due to the lack of refinement in genetic science? Or because the identifiable links don't exist?
Are you asking that if we were to use his example but geneticists identify gene F makes group one's nostrils flare and gene G makes group two's nostrils flare, would race exist?