A comic that'll make you think...

[Team Bisping]

So again, what are you proposing to deal with wealth inequality?

I grew up in low income housing on a council estate, living in a single parent household on benefits. I lived the lifestyle and I know the culture. You may be baffled by my blame on parents and culture but you provide no alternative (again). Kids can get an education and get out of poverty. Why don't they? While my goal was to go to university and become an engineer, the kids I was growing up with had no idea what they wanted to do with their lives. They weren't encouraged to do well. Kids who did well at school were made fun of.

Why do Chinese/Asian children outperform any other demographic at school? Because their culture encourages them to study hard and pursue higher education. To dismiss culture is mind blowing and erroneous.

I don't "believe" I'm educated, I AM educated. Leigh Remedios BEng (HONS) (First) CEng MIET MIRSE. That's not an appeal to authority, it is simply to help dispel your ad hominem. You can try to condescend me as much as you like but it doesn't make your point any stronger.

You have identified a problem but you have neither identified a cause nor a solution. Maybe you should start with that before criticising others who are attempting to.

I think you're mistaken if you believe I went out of my way to condescend or even criticise or disrespect you, that was not my purpose but a call for a different view point. You don't need to justify you argument with qualifications, as an academic myself (BSc, Msc, PhD blah blah blah), i've seen my fair share of "educated" people debate with a very narrow (uneducated) viewpoint.

It's much easier to shout at me about what I'M going to do, than address the issue as a collective, my life revolves around working alongside the worlds best sociologists, computer scientists and engineers, both electrical and mechanical. I'm currently working with the UK's ministry of defence with the aim of creating a model to help can understand the provenance & quality of data across multiple channels to help give a better outline of how inequality both politically and socially can be pinpointed.

As for the wide issues, such as the obviously unequal distribution of wealth globally...I have no answer for you, this isn't a 'here's a solution'...it's much more complex, it's the combination of extremely small contributions to society from academics, activists and the people who care that will hopefully push for a more pro-human world.

Again if you feel disrespected by my replies, please don't, I post on this forum because I believe in having debates without calling each other names.

In your last post, you made some valid arguments, and of course it would erroneous to rule out culture, but it's not the only variable, what i'm trying to say is you're asking for a solution, and I wish it was as easy as that.

 

[ThatOneDude]

I think you're mistaken if you believe I went out of my way to condescend or even criticise or disrespect you, that was not my purpose but a call for a different view point. You don't need to justify you argument with qualifications, as an academic myself (BSc, Msc, PhD blah blah blah), i've seen my fair share of "educated" people debate with a very narrow (uneducated) viewpoint.

It's much easier to shout at me about what I'M going to do, than address the issue as a collective, my life revolves around working alongside the worlds best sociologists, computer scientists and engineers, both electrical and mechanical. I'm currently working with the UK's ministry of defence with the aim of creating a model to help can understand the provenance & quality of data across multiple channels to help give a better outline of how inequality both politically and socially can be pinpointed.

As for the wide issues, such as the obviously unequal distribution of wealth globally...I have no answer for you, this isn't a 'here's a solution'...it's much more complex, it's the combination of extremely small contributions to society from academics, activists and the people who care that will hopefully push for a more pro-human world.

Again if you feel disrespected by my replies, please don't, I post on this forum because I believe in having debates without calling each other names.

In your last post, you made some valid arguments, and of course it would erroneous to rule out culture, but it's not the only variable, what i'm trying to say is you're asking for a solution, and I wish it was as easy as that.

Do you agree that culture does play a large role in it though? And that a cultural change must happen before people can "rise up"?

 

[Leigh]

I don't feel disrespected but I think your posts are baseless. You specifically said culture wasn't to blame in your previous post, now you say it's a factor. You post an article for discussion but offer no talking points. I made some and you tried to shoot me down.

Well, I guess that's the end of the thread. Some people are super rich, others are poor and most people would like the wealth to be more evenly distributed. Nothing more to discuss. It seems you wanted to make a statement rather than have a discussion.

 

[Team Bisping]

Do you agree that culture does play a large role in it though? And that a cultural change must happen before people can "rise up"?

Of course, but so does marginalisation of that culture through government policies, lack of support from academic institutions, racism and inequality on numerous fronts from obvious wage gap between men and women..which only serves to impact a one parent household and so on...I'm not making excuses the most vulnerable, i just like to look at the issues from a multidisciplinary nature that it deserves.

Though I just saw this TED call from Shia...which made me laugh.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os6U77Hhm_s

 

[ThatOneDude]

Of course, but so does marginalisation of that culture through government policies, lack of support from academic institutions, racism and inequality on numerous fronts from obvious wage gap between men and women..which only serves to impact a one parent household and so on...I'm not making excuses the most vulnerable, i just like to look at the issues from a multidisciplinary nature that it deserves.

Though I just saw this TED call from Shia...which made me laugh.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os6U77Hhm_s

Imo, I think the cultural problems are the worst because they are internal. There are always going to be external stresses that you have no control over, ie someone else's racism. But you yourself can decide if you want to fall into the cultural traps.

 

[Team Bisping]

I don't feel disrespected but I think your posts are baseless. You specifically said culture wasn't to blame in your previous post, now you say it's a factor. You post an article for discussion but offer no talking points. I made some and you tried to shoot me down.

Well, I guess that's the end of the thread. Some people are super rich, others are poor and most people would like the wealth to be more evenly distributed. Nothing more to discuss. It seems you wanted to make a statement rather than have a discussion.

Not at all, but do you believe Culture is the ONLY thing holding people back? There are so many factors to take into consideration, I choose not to vilify the most vulnerable but try to understand why there is poverty or inequality in the first place. We are still in times of mass inequality, both economically and socially. Some countries have only just legalised gay marriage..and there are states where it is still illegal, it's baffling but shows how far we still need to go.

 

[Leigh]

If you read my post, you will see that I do not ENTIRELY blame culture. There is no question that there are other factors in place that contribute, both intentional and unintentional. However, as @Thatonedude says, you can't stop people being greedy but you can help people realise that they aren't as helpless as they seem.

Interesting that you bring up racism regarding people trying to find opportunities to better themselves. Affirmative action is one example of exactly that.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

If I had never seen someone produce a quarter-million dollar W2 and be denied the ability to rent an apartment maybe I would believe this myth of pulling yourself up.

Yes, you can do quite well by doing the right things in life like getting educated and finding a good job, you can also have a Master's degree and be working for minimum wage. Think I'm kidding? I know a person for every example I'm making. I had a friend have to move to Chicago to simply find work in his field, he was a lifelong New Yorker.

People bring up Affirmative Action like scores of jobs are being handed out. Which is it? Are people not working or are thousands being given jobs? It can't be both. The answer is that the mere existence of AA is a talking point, although in reality the numbers of people getting these 'jobs' don't add up to jack shit. White women are the primary beneficiaries if I recall correctly, and even then I'm sure all 50 of them appreciate it.

Culture is ALWAYS in the mix, but acting as though it's the primary cause is super short-sighted. People out here are just fucking mean, and it's THAT culture that should change before anything else.

 

[ThatOneDude]

If I had never seen someone produce a quarter-million dollar W2 and be denied the ability to rent an apartment maybe I would believe this myth of pulling yourself up.

Yes, you can do quite well by doing the right things in life like getting educated and finding a good job, you can also have a Master's degree and be working for minimum wage. Think I'm kidding? I know a person for every example I'm making. I had a friend have to move to Chicago to simply find work in his field, he was a lifelong New Yorker.

People bring up Affirmative Action like scores of jobs are being handed out. Which is it? Are people not working or are thousands being given jobs? It can't be both. The answer is that the mere existence of AA is a talking point, although in reality the numbers of people getting these 'jobs' don't add up to jack shit. White women are the primary beneficiaries if I recall correctly, and even then I'm sure all 50 of them appreciate it.

Culture is ALWAYS in the mix, but acting as though it's the primary cause is super short-sighted. People out here are just fucking mean, and it's THAT culture that should change before anything else.

Imo moving is part of pulling yourself up by your boot straps. I was in Connecticut, couldn't find any decent jobs, so I uprooted my life, moved to the DFW area and I'm making 3x's what I was, living in a brand new house, rocking a good job.

You have to be willing to make sacrifices, such as moving out of your comfort zone if that's what is best for your family.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

Imo moving is part of pulling yourself up by your boot straps. I was in Connecticut, couldn't find any decent jobs, so I uprooted my life, moved to the DFW area and I'm making 3x's what I was, living in a brand new house, rocking a good job.

That may well be, but it's only because jobs can't be found in the NYC area. Meanwhile, the MTA raises subway prices once a year, the farmers complain so grocery prices go up on a regular basis, apartment rents are SCHEDULED to rise once per year and just having lunch will cost you more than it did in 2014. Inflation is a fact of life, wages for the little people 'well, we'll just have to make do'.

You won't hear a peep if the CEO of JP Morgan gets an extra 10 million this year, but people will start bawling their eyes out if the proposed minimum wage is anywhere near the cost to live.

That's the 'culture' I'm most worried about.

 

[ThatOneDude]

That may well be, but it's only because jobs can't be found in the NYC area. Meanwhile, that MTA raises subway prices once a year, the farmers complain so grocery prices go up on a regular basis, apartment rents are SCHEDULED to rise once per year and just having lunch will cost you more than it did in 2014.

You won't hear a peep if the CEO of JP Morgan gets an extra 10 million this year, but people will start bawling their eyes out if the proposed minimum wage is anywhere near the cost to live.

That's the 'culture' I'm most worried about.

Then move if it's to expensive to live there. The cost of living where I'm at now is literally 60% of what it was, on top of bringing in more money dollar for dollar. It's crazy to me to stay in a place like that if you aren't able to afford it.

In this day and age there is ZERO excuse not to relocate. It's not like you have to go on the Oregon Trail to move somewhere now.

 

[ThatOneDude]

And just to be clear, I don't think culture is the only reason, there are many different issues at play, I just focus on the one that someone has the most control over.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

Then move if it's to expensive to live there. The cost of living where I'm at now is literally 60% of what it was, on top of bringing in more money dollar for dollar. It's crazy to me to stay in a place like that if you aren't able to afford it.

LOL, move you say? Some people have families and lives here. I have a better idea....change the culture of greed so that housing can be more affordable and rates can be more in line with the costs of living.

According to you we all have to move to a small town because every place else is owned by corporate interests. New York isn't the only place all of this is happening...I said food prices and rent was going up, that's practically every where in this country. Yes you can move, or you can try to change the culture. I for one am tired of watching CEO's clear millions and abject tears when the employees try to get some of it. That's what 'occupy' was about. I was there.

 

[ThatOneDude]

LOL, move you say? Some people have families and lives here. I have a better idea....change the culture of greed so that housing can be more affordable and rates can be more in line with the costs of living.

According to you we all have to move to a small town because every place else is owned by corporate interests. New York isn't the only place all of this is happening...I said food prices and rent was going up, that's practically every where in this country. Yes you can move, or you can try to change the culture. I for one am tired of watching CEO's clear millions and abject tears when the employees try to get some of it. That's what 'occupy' was about. I was there.

I had family in CT, I moved because it was best for my family. The world is a big place, if you decide to stay pigeon holed in one area then that's on you and I have zero sympathy.

Unfortunately there are some things you can and can not control, I personally tend to worry about the things I can change and my life has been better because of it. Let the CEO's make their millions, it's not going to affect me and my slice of the pie.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

I had family in CT, I moved because it was best for my family. The world is a big place, if you decide to stay pigeon holed in one area then that's on you and I have zero sympathy.

You mean pigeon-holed in America? Are you moving out of the country anytime soon? You seem to believe that none of this is happening around you or that the rumbling in this country is happening everywhere you aren't. Wages are a NATIONAL issue. You can't 'move' your way out of it, the only thing that saves you money on is rent. New Yorkers move more than anyone in the country. Move out of state to save rent? Now you have to buy a car...and insurance. Wanna go to college? Now you're 200k in debt 4 years later.

I find it staggering how easily ignored millions of dollars paid to everyone else but the middle class comes to members of the middle class, than again I have zero sympathy for those people when they lose their jobs and their houses are auctioned off.

 

[ThatOneDude]

You mean pigeon-holed in America? Are you moving out of the country anytime soon? You seem to believe that none of this is happening around you or that the rumbling in this country is happening everywhere you aren't. Wages are a NATIONAL issue. You can't 'move' your way out of it, the only thing that saves you money on is rent. New Yorkers move more than anyone in the country. Move out of state to save rent? Now you have to buy a car.

I find it staggering how easily ignored millions of dollars paid to everyone else but the middle class comes to members of the middle class, than again, I have zero sympathy for those people when they lose their jobs and their houses are auctioned off.

No its a large country and many places to move. Some better some worse. Rent is not the only thing cheaper down here. Food is cheaper, gas is cheaper, utilities are cheaper, housing is cheaper, the list goes on. I'm not ignoring the millions of dollars paid to everyone but the middle class, I'm just choosing my battles. You were at the occupy movement, what came out from that? Instead of protesting something that wasn't going to change, I worked my ass off and obtained the skills needed to land a decent job, and now my life is much better for it. If they are losing their houses and cars from losing their jobs maybe they were living outside their means and didn't have a safety net, just a thought.

 

[ThatOneDude]

Also this is really cliche, but @GAY HOEMAN, if you are that unhappy why not leave?

 

[Punch]

I'm taken aback by the lack of empathy for the poor.

 

[ThatOneDude]

I'm taken aback by the lack of empathy for the poor.

It's not a lack of empathy for the poor, it's a lack of empathy for people not willing to make sacrifices and changes for a better life.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

No its a large country and many places to move. Some better some worse. Rent is not the only thing cheaper down here. Food is cheaper, gas is cheaper, utilities are cheaper, housing is cheaper, the list goes on. I'm not ignoring the millions of dollars paid to everyone but the middle class, I'm just choosing my battles. You were at the occupy movement, what came out from that? Instead of protesting something that wasn't going to change, I worked my ass off and obtained the skills needed to land a decent job, and now my life is much better for it. If they are losing their houses and cars from losing their jobs maybe they were loving outside their means and didn't have a safety net, just a thought.

Oh, so national averages don't exist? Prices aren't going up nationally, we just have to move and every thing will be alright? Um, ok. So your 'battles' aren't for the group in which you belong? It doesn't sound like you're picking a battle at all, it sounds just like the comic 'things are ok where am I, why can't you guys get it together'? 'Just move here and don't speak up about corporate interests raiding your home and turning it into Disneyland'. As far as what came out of the Occupy movement, I sense some condescension there. Here's a tip...not every movement has to produce results immediatley. Occupy did what it was SUPPOSED to do, start a national conversation about fair wages. So to answer your question, so far Occupy is peripherally responsible for wage increases in a number of states. How's that for results?

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

Also this is really cliche, but @GAY HOEMAN, if you are that unhappy why not leave?

You have this confused. I am not the poor, I have made 6 figures since the age of 21. The issue is that even at that wage it's difficult at best to get ahead. What company is going to hire you if you don't have an education from a GOOD college? 'Good College' will cost you 50k per year. Good luck with moving your way out of that. Way to start your life. This isn't about me it's about America bilking those who have less.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

My wife's sister is a regional manager of a major hotel chain, her husband is a mechanic, they own a small house in the south probably in a place as 'cheap' as Thatonedude.

Had money set back for the kids college, BOOM heart problems from hubby now bankruptcy sucks everything in like a black hole.

Why does the middle class have to live on that ledge? Let me guess. he should've exercised more?

 

[Priziesthorse]

You have this confused. I am not the poor, I have made 6 figures since the age of 21. The issue is that even at that wage it's difficult at best to get ahead. What company is going to hire you if you don't have an education from a GOOD college? 'Good College' will cost you 50k per year. Good luck with moving your way out of that. Way to start your life. This isn't about me it's about America bilking those who have less.

This is not true. I have a degree from Rutgers University that cost less than 20k a year. I'm not sure if that qualifies as a "good college" but I have been hired by multiple fortune 500 companies.

 

[girlandcoconut]

Reminds me of a great episode of NPR's Invisibilia podcast titled How to Become Batman that spoke to the effect that expectations can have on people and on the things around them.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

This is not true. I have a degree from Rutgers University that cost less than 20k a year. I'm not sure if that qualifies as a "good college" but I have been hired by multiple fortune 500 companies.

Ok, so 100k for Rutgers. I hope that's this years prices.