Throws/Takedowns in GJJ vs Judo.

[Mishima Zaibatsu]

How do they compare?

Obviously a Judoka is going to have superior Tachi Waza as a BJJ guy is going to have better Ne Waza, goes without saying. But there's alot of overlap, as Judo is the daddy of BJJ.

I'm just curious, how good is the takedowns/throws usually from the average to even best BJJ fighter? I've seen some ADCC, EBI and Metamoris competitions, seems like less focus is put on actually throwing your opponent and more on what to do when you end up on the ground when your opponent throws you or, pulling guard right away(I don't see any practical application with this at all). I mean, what happens if you can't get your opponent down and they throw you but don't follow you t the mat, or just avoid the ground all together? Seems like throws should be just as important as rolling and that it's rather incomplete without.

I often look at the old guard of BJJ, like Helio, Rickson, the Nogueira's, etc they often have atleast a black belt, if not more in Judo. But it seems as if alot of BJJ guys aren't using Judo anymore and just focus on BJJ when fighting in MMA with some form of Striking, whether that be Boxing, Mauy Thai or what have you...

I've also heard that most BJJ guys are focusing more on Wrestling takedowns and throws and combining that with their BJJ. Curious why, given, most Wrestling moves I've seen are sacrifice moves(like the Lateral Drop, Suplex, Seatbelt Toss) and many of these techniques overlap or have their own version in Judo, like the Ura Nage(similar to the Suplex) Yoko Ware(similar to the Lateral Drop) etc or have you ending up in someones guard(like the double leg).

 

[member 603]

In my opinion, Judo (especially modern competition Judo) focus's solely on the throw (which scores your points, ends the match), in BJJ we are looking for the takedown and getting to the best position to advance to the submission.

Some Judo throws expose your back at times, and savvy BJJ guys have taken to getting those hooks in fast. Another thing is, takedowns are probably one of the toughest parts of grappling events, since BJJ guys are looking for subs, they pull guard to save energy.

 

[Mishima Zaibatsu]

In my opinion, Judo (especially modern competition Judo) focus's solely on the throw (which scores your points, ends the match), in BJJ we are looking for the takedown and getting to the best position to advance to the submission.

Some Judo throws expose your back at times, and savvy BJJ guys have taken to getting those hooks in fast. Another thing is, takedowns are probably one of the toughest parts of grappling events, since BJJ guys are looking for subs, they pull guard to save energy.

Judo does focus mostly on throwing, partly, I think because if you throw your opponent, the force from many of them is enough to do quite a bit of damage to someone, say if they were to land on something that isn't a mat, like concrete, asphalt or even a wooden floor. Having taken some rather high impact throws already, I can only imagine what it must be like to get thrown with a Seoinage on a street somewhere, doesn't sound pretty, even if you known Ukemi.

You're going to get something broken or at the very least be pretty dazed. I'm thinking they look at a quality throw as an end too a match because of this. Not to mention, if you throw your opponent and follow through, you can end up in Side Mount, which, again, is a very dominant position, far better than ending up in someones guard.

Anyway, I'm fortunate to be at a Dojo that focuses on both Tachi and Ne Waza(the class I had on Thursday we did a decent amount of ground work, I'm covered from head to toe in bruises, my muscles were pretty sore and scraped the skin straight off one of my feet from it, haha). Gave me a first hand experience of how taxing ground work can be, especially if you're not used too it.

You're right about some throws giving up your back, like the famous Seoinage's many variants, and some of Koshi Waza expose your back, literally requireing you to completely turn in the same diretion as your opponent, even require you, for purposes of Kusushi to bring your opponents arm close to your neck, but there are tons of techniques like Ashi Waza that don't and a few Te, Koshi and Sutemi that don't.

Something that I'm realizing about both arts is, how "sportified" they've become and both have gone in different directions, even though they're mutually beneficial to one another.

 

[Mishima Zaibatsu]

With all of that said, after observing both Judo and BJJ classes, I realized finally that Judo is something I'd much rather do and am very happy that the Dojo I'm attending also does a decent amount of ground work.

I'm far more fascinated and impressed with throws than I am rolling.

Maybe one day I'll give BJJ a try aswell, but as of right now, I'd rather focus on what's more important too me.

 

[member 603]

At the end of the day, do what you love. Objectively if you get a big person, or a person who is hard to throw, you can tend to gas yourself (I have experienced this going up against a decent judoka in a tournament when I was a purple belt, we cancelled each other out with takedown attempts and defense). At that point I pulled guard and had my way with them.

In a self defense situation, if I get close enough for a clinch, I immediately go to my single leg attack (and stay low to negate any attempted transition by them to toss me in a sport attempt). I also know that with anything, unless I put a guy out immediately, nowadays with the drugs people take, or alcohol affect, a throw may not stop them (hell I saw a drunk chick shake off 5 taser hits). For me the transitions of BJJ have always been more practical in those regards.... That said, I equally love my experience training solely Judo and Sambo too.

 

[Mishima Zaibatsu]

At the end of the day, do what you love. Objectively if you get a big person, or a person who is hard to throw, you can tend to gas yourself (I have experienced this going up against a decent judoka in a tournament when I was a purple belt, we cancelled each other out with takedown attempts and defense). At that point I pulled guard and had my way with them.

In a self defense situation, if I get close enough for a clinch, I immediately go to my single leg attack (and stay low to negate any attempted transition by them to toss me in a sport attempt). I also know that with anything, unless I put a guy out immediately, nowadays with the drugs people take, or alcohol affect, a throw may not stop them (hell I saw a drunk chick shake off 5 taser hits). For me the transitions of BJJ have always been more practical in those regards.... That said, I equally love my experience training solely Judo and Sambo too.

I'm not a small guy myself, 6'1, about 185. I only plan on getting a bit bigger by adding some mass, but I have long, strong legs, so Ashi Waza was recommended. Ofcourse, if you go up against a HW or something, someone who's both heavier and taller (who are only a small percentage of the population) if you have good technique and they're(like most tough guys on the street) just some brawler who thinks they're tough because they've beaten up others like that, I don't see how they would be able to defend a well placed and timed throw.

It's like a brawler against a good Boxer/Kickboxer, they're not going to have the skills to hang.

And at the end of the day, 95% of the world doesn't practice martial arts. In my part of Canada, Wrestling isn't very popular, Hockey and Rugby are the biggest sports in terms of what people do recreationally, the Boxing and Judo club I attend are relatively small, even the BJJ class I went too wasn't that big. Most people don't have the interest or discipline to train to get good at anything really, not martial arts anyway.

 

[Leigh]

Most jiujitsu players have poor takedowns. The vast majority of my opponents butt flops. That said, the ruleset of BJJ allows more freedom and SHOULD evolve better takedowns.

I don't worry about judo guys when I compete. I can stiff arm them, shoot for legs, take them down forwards etc