General Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Discussion in 'The Off-topic Lounge' started by MachidaKarate, Aug 18, 2018.

  1. Kneeblock

    Kneeblock Jumbo shrimp

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    Thank you for an actual critique as opposed to the usual rejoinders. I'm curious as to why you're against free college. If you are pro-automation, with its accompanying creative destruction, how do you feel the labor force will recalibrate? Do you think instead a basic income should support the mass unemployment to follow, in which case your tax bill will similarly take a big hit.
     
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  2. This Pothead

    This Pothead I walk on water but stagger on beer.

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    Lol at the people that are against this lady are some of the same people who where for this dude.
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  3. Lars

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  4. Splinty

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    I typed a long reply here and lost it thanks to internet.
    My fingers need a break and I'll have to get back to you here.

    Short: rich kids will still go to college. Cost isn't the reason poor kids aren't going to college. I support shared cost burdens for economic and social fairness.

    College needs a shift in funding/spending, not a giant new cash pool with questionable benefit.

    Student loan crisis is overblown. A great majority can pay off their loans but are not prioritizing them. This is based on median incomes debt burden.

    Not convinced the most efficient use of funds for society benefit.

    For instance, I'm an easy buy in for universal pre-k as a goal and you can get me to come across the aisle for subsidized child care. I won't even consider throwing more cash into a non-crisis before those two things are funded properly.



    I'm not pro automation. I'm against subsidizing cheap human labor for the sake of keeping jobs.

    "If you raise the minimum wage, those jobs will go away" is not a good argument to me.

    Some people want to keep minimum wage low or gone. Those people will never get their concurrent wish, which is paired with social programs like medicaid, housing, etc. go away as well, freeing the market to pay a non-manipulated wage. I'm not advocating those policies.

    What is currently happening is that we pay people too little, then we hide all their labor costs on the back end via social programs. That let's us pay them too little because you can find workers as long as we are backing up those poor wages with social freebies.
    Then businesses make choices based on human capital cost to them, not cost to the system.

    Society, no matter the individuals, has decided on a required minimum standard of living access via these social programs. So given that, I say raise the minimum wage and the first thing that will happen is people will no longer qualify for a number of those programs. Some will (larger families with only one earner) but many won't. Costs will be moved to the product being purchased and either that product can be made in the current processes or it can't. I don't know and I don't care. I do care that the costs just became much clearer. I suspect, like the arguments for UBI, there are efficiencies to had in this simple change by providing living credits in cash instead of housing vouchers and food vouchers.

    No idea. The issue isn't just the raw number of taxes I pay. Its more that I don't think public policy can be made in the environment of shell games we have now. Simply rolling the minimum wage to a goal that tapers the current minimum wage workers off of social programs, then provides a realistic unemployment number to address. And maybe UBI becomes an efficient way to manage that. Maybe not.
     
  5. jason73

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  6. Lars

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  7. Ted Williams' head

    Ted Williams' head It's freezing in here!

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    Lets make post-secondary completely free! That will in no way create a generation of "professional students" who don't enter the work force until their 30-something. But that's fine, because we'll have a bunch of smart people, because university makes you smart! Ugh.
     
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  8. Lars

    Lars Thor Shark

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    University made me smart

    R u saying it didn’t

    Fite me
     
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  9. Kneeblock

    Kneeblock Jumbo shrimp

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    Why do you link low wages so closely to entitlement enrollment? Data doesn't support the notion that the majority of beneficiaries are being hidden on the back of entitlement programs. There's great variability in who the primary users of different social programs are. Medicaid/CHIP, SNAP and TANF all have different eligibility threshold and vary widely from state to state. Medicaid/chip has the highest enrollment of working families with their comprising 61% of the program's enrollment, largely due to the much higher eligibility threshold under the affordable care act. TANF has 32% of its enrollment made up of working families. SNAP has 36%. (Source) I'm not sure what percentage of those groups make minimum wage, but there is still a large percentage of people out there who are flat out unemployed or underemployed. I do agree raising minimum wages would cause a needed correction across labor markets, but as you said, it would hasten automation, and likely not just to low wage sectors of the economy. In fact, automation has been rapidly colonizing middle class jobs as well and deskilling managerial and some specialized jobs. I agree with not artificially propping up sectors of the economy and am not a fan of "full employment" as a policy goal, which is where I diverge with Bernie and others. I think true cost transparency over shell games is a laudable goal, but the issue is that this comes at tremendous economic cost and the accompanying social instability that follows. Subsidizing education and retraining alongside public works programs to fill the currently open and future jobs is one possible stopgap measure. The rich kids and poor kids aren't really the issue so much as the kids in the middle who qualify for very little student aid and whose parents have to struggle to keep their children competitive and which feeds the expanding loan bubble, which I'm curious why you think is overblown. I do think there's a lot of sensationalism around it but the growing securitization of private lending could easily lead to contagion like we saw in the housing crisis.

    Basic income is another road through, but has its own problems, from the high costs to the trouble with shifting that kind of burden to the state and leaving it open to politicization.

    It's a complex muddle.
     
  10. MachidaKarate

    MachidaKarate Active Member

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    I appreciate all the info you posted and found it interesting, but I'll point out that even Denmark's Prime Minister has come out to correct the record and point out that they're not a socialist country (no matter how many times Bernie says they are):

    Denmark Tells Bernie Sanders It's Had Enough Of His 'Socialist' Slurs | Investor's Business Daily

    And here, an economics professor at the University of Georgia weighs in on the question:

    Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist

    As he points out--and as I've seen others point out in recent months as well--a lot of people today are essentially re-defining the word "socialism" and it's only under this re-definition that you might be able to fit the Scandinavian countries under the socialist umbrella. As he says--and just as the Denmark PM also affirmed--economically they simply do not act like true socialist countries, despite all their welfare programs and a generous government-provided social safety net.

    I would argue though that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and her DSA cronies DO want to usher in an era of actual socialism in America. She is on record as saying that "capitalism will not always exist in the world" and that she is working toward the goal of tearing capitalism down in the United States, which means that her goal for the US is fundamentally different from what we see in capitalist democracies like Denmark and Sweden. She may very well call herself a "democratic" socialist, but I have little doubt that if she and those like her were somehow put in power in the United States that we wouldn't be democratic for long.
     
    #60 MachidaKarate, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  11. MachidaKarate

    MachidaKarate Active Member

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    God, I would love to see that actually happen.
     
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  12. MachidaKarate

    MachidaKarate Active Member

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  13. Kneeblock

    Kneeblock Jumbo shrimp

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    Lars Lokke Rasmussen is the current prime minister of Denmark. He's part of the Venstre party, which is the political right in Danish politics. Venstre has a platform of libetalization and has been working to disassemble aspects of the welfare state. But that welfare state was put in place by guess who?

    The Danish Social Democratic party, which reigned from the 1920s until well into the 1960s and created the system the Danes enjoy today.

    In Finland, the social welfare system was put into place in the 1950s and 60s by guess who? The Red Earth government, a coalition between the Social Democratic party and the Centre Party. The SDP was a member of the socialist international and held majority seats in Parliament for much of the 60s-80s.

    In Norway, the welfare state was created by the social democratic Labour Party, which has been in power since roughly 1927, though they did undertake a campaign of libetalization in the 1990s. Their main competition has been from the Socialist party who briefly broke their reign in the 1970s and as a consequence of their liberalization and a resurgent right they've lost clout in the 2000s.

    In Sweden, the Social Democrats were the ones who organized the social welfare system and reigned for much of the 20th century, sometimes losing seats to the further left Communist party and Left party, though since the mid-2000s they've consistently been losing out to the right wing Alliance Party. The party also had an extensive infusion of liberalization when that was all the rage in the 80s and 90s.

    So reducing the nation-state to a static image or descriptor is folly. It's a story of historical struggle and in each of the cases in the Nordic model, it was Social Democrats, mostly in the model of Bernsteinian revisionism (which by the way isn't mutually exclusive with capitalism, unlike what's called "vulgar Marxism" or orthodox Marxism). For that matter, neither is Leninism which ultimately was a form of state based capitalism.

    So when you say Ocasio Cortez wants to usher in an age of "actual socialism," understand there is no "actual," that can be applied to the term, as there are a variety of interpretations. Ocasio Cortez is a part of the Democratic Socialists of America platform, which I already laid out in exhaustive detail.

    And there's nothing so insane about saying capitalism won't always exist. A major part of Marx's critique of capital was that embedded in it were the seeds of its collapse. Some believe we're already in the period of "late capitalism" (I don't). Others believe we're accelerating toward something that's not capitalism, but worse. It's hard to make such judgments. But capitalism and democracy don't necessarily need one another to exist, as we know from ancient Democratic societies like Athens, which certainly wasn't anything close to capitalist. And also from capitalist societies like Russia, which is hardly Democratic.

    Slough off the Cold War rhetoric and see that socialization, like liberalization, democratization or centralization are processes--Simply instruments for making societies more manageable depending on the historical moment. None of them are boogeymen.
     
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  14. jason73

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  15. Fuðflogi

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    Lol by American standards moderaterna would be considered commies. There's no alliance party, that's a coalition between moderaterna, krist demokraterna, liberalerna and centern. Anyways don't model your country after a shithole like Sweden.
     
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  16. MachidaKarate

    MachidaKarate Active Member

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    Let me ask you, do you draw a distinction between social democracy and democratic socialism?

    You don't seem to.
     
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  17. Kneeblock

    Kneeblock Jumbo shrimp

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    No, not really. We can quibble over them, but they come from the same roots and the American version of democratic socialism at this point is essentially the same as the European version of social democracy. The only difference is that democratic socialists believe ultimately capitalism will (and should) end and that worker ownership of the means of production should be a goal whereas Social Democrats are agnostic on the matter and mostly believe in expanding the welfare state and some socialization of key industries. Social Democrats are more statist. Bernie's more of a social Democrat. Historically, Democratic socialists are more local and are more associated with unionism etc. But as I said, they come from the same revisionist thought line and at this point in time, in actual praxis, the differences are negligible.
     
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  18. Truck Party

    Truck Party Well-Known Member

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    Has either group expressed a view on Venezuela?
     
  19. Kneeblock

    Kneeblock Jumbo shrimp

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    #1 vacation destination. Best prices, best women and adventure all the time.
     
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  20. Truck Party

    Truck Party Well-Known Member

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    When I was a freshman in college I got a job as a bellman at a nice hotel & there were exchange programs there w/ Venezuela & Columbia, the chemicals in the fruit & veggies here added 10 lbs. to the ladies in all the right places. God bless the South American women, that was probably the greatest time in my life
     
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  21. Fuðflogi

    Fuðflogi ໝາກສີດາ
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    To me that says equality shit. And about drunk as man get
     
  22. Pitbull9

    Pitbull9 Daddy

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    Yeah but that begs the question
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  23. Fuðflogi

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  24. Jesus X

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  25. Jesus X

    Jesus X vita brevis

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    me asusta pero me gusta.
     
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