Sci/Tech Anti-malarial Drugs unsafe for use to treat COVID

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Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
44,116
91,096
Has there been a decent study done on this yet?
Weak evidence for and against. It's no problem knocking that the VA trial was retrospective. Docs were using it, and they looked back to see if there were trends it worked. The didn't. But they did find harm. That's a concern and shouldn't be dismissed.

The original studies out of China never had data attached. French study is viral shedding in a classroom sized patient cohort. No one was complaining about zinc or anything else as these studies were overstated. Nor did the French use Zinc in their claims of efficacy.

Only a couple of studies are even patient focused. Most are bench top or non patient focused outcomes.

There are larger more comprehensive trials underway but of course that takes time. Cautious optimism remains the name of the game on this one. There is reason to believe it works in a certain cohort of patients and there's lots of reason to believe its not a panacea.

But again, just as the president and others is WAY overstating this med, the media has tossed it out just as fast with incomplete studies.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,835
Every medicine has side effects. Some people have more sides than others, while others don't get any side effects.
If its unsafe for covid then its unsafe for malaria and lupus etc.
it's about managing risks, and the population that you expose to those risks
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,549
56,270
in what way?
Death rate.

With the exception of Canada, where JT is doing everything he can to make sure that even people who shouldn't be it are getting financial assistance. It's actually a neat trick, he's giving out billions of dollars per week, but not enough money is going to individual's to actually keep them out of poverty.
 

tang

top korean roofer
Oct 21, 2015
9,398
12,402
Weak evidence for and against. It's no problem knocking that the VA trial was retrospective. Docs were using it, and they looked back to see if there were trends it worked. The didn't. But they did find harm. That's a concern and shouldn't be dismissed.

The original studies out of China never had data attached. French study is viral shedding in a classroom sized patient cohort. No one was complaining about zinc or anything else as these studies were overstated. Nor did the French use Zinc in their claims of efficacy.

Only a couple of studies are even patient focused. Most are bench top or non patient focused outcomes.

There are larger more comprehensive trials underway but of course that takes time. Cautious optimism remains the name of the game on this one. There is reason to believe it works in a certain cohort of patients and there's lots of reason to believe its not a panacea.

But again, just as the president and others is WAY overstating this med, the media has tossed it out just as fast with incomplete studies.
what do you think about these factors? does all the research state when the HCQ was given at what stage of the virus progression?
All antivirals work best EARLY on in the disease. Later does no good since it's supposed to stop the multiplying of the virus. It's not going to magically cure the disease after it's been spread all over the body

Zinc is an important co-factor in the antiviral activity of the cell.

Virtually, every study of HCQ in the US has been given to intubated patients. Not given early. Given very late.

Virtually, every US study of HCA has neither included zinc or mentioned why not

All studies that purport to be definitive are actually garbage if they are not controlling for timing and measuring / controlling zinc serum level
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,835
Death rate.

With the exception of Canada, where JT is doing everything he can to make sure that even people who shouldn't be it are getting financial assistance. It's actually a neat trick, he's giving out billions of dollars per week, but not enough money is going to individual's to actually keep them out of poverty.
a lot of his low 'death rate' is due to the fact that there are large parts of the country that haven't been impacted yet...but those still bring our rate down...IMAO, we're doing about as good of a job as France.
 

Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
26,916
26,743
  • The U.S. has the 33rd-highest mortality rate, measured as deaths divided by total cases, out of the 134 countries tracked by Johns Hopkins. That means more than 100 countries have lower mortality rates than the U.S., although many of those countries reported comparatively few cases.
  • When compared only to the ten countries with the most cases, the U.S. ranks as the second-lowest mortality rate as a percentage of total cases. That means eight of those countries hardest-hit by the coronavirus have higher mortality rates than the U.S.
  • The U.S. ranks 12th-highest in the world when it comes to deaths per 100,000 people.
 

MartyLife

ยาเม็ดสีแดงหรือสีฟ้ายา?
Feb 7, 2020
1,840
1,637
The U.S. has 5 times as many people as France. 21 430 x 5 = 107 150
Friend, kindly take a look at the percentages in the links. That is what "rate" means.
Rate is a percentage of the population, not the totals. The rate between the two is similar, with the U.S. slightly higher.

Peace and blessings.
 

MartyLife

ยาเม็ดสีแดงหรือสีฟ้ายา?
Feb 7, 2020
1,840
1,637
Exactly. 21k is a much biggger percentage of 55 million that 47k is of 330 million. It's actually about double.
I see you are talking about deaths of the total population.
You cannot use that as any kind of gauge.
The total population has not been infected in either country. Nor will it.
You can only go by the rate of total number deaths out of total number infected.

Namaste
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,549
56,270
see you are talking about deaths of the total population.
You cannot use that as any kind of gauge.
It's what you use if you're concerned about accuracy.

The total population has not been infected in either country. Nor will it.
We have no idea how many people are infected because we don't test adequately.

You can only go by the rate of total number deaths out of total number infected.
Even though the experts say the infection rate is way higher than what's been counted?
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
12,435
23,026
Weak evidence for and against. It's no problem knocking that the VA trial was retrospective. Docs were using it, and they looked back to see if there were trends it worked. The didn't. But they did find harm. That's a concern and shouldn't be dismissed.

The original studies out of China never had data attached. French study is viral shedding in a classroom sized patient cohort. No one was complaining about zinc or anything else as these studies were overstated. Nor did the French use Zinc in their claims of efficacy.

Only a couple of studies are even patient focused. Most are bench top or non patient focused outcomes.

There are larger more comprehensive trials underway but of course that takes time. Cautious optimism remains the name of the game on this one. There is reason to believe it works in a certain cohort of patients and there's lots of reason to believe its not a panacea.

But again, just as the president and others is WAY overstating this med, the media has tossed it out just as fast with incomplete studies.
I think you're missing the media narrative here, which has been fairly consistent across sources. In sum, it's been "public figures should not tout unproven claims."

Weirdly the conversation has shifted to the efficacy of the drugs when the initial concern was about science communication more generally. There have been similar vexing problems in the way science has been presented (see e.g. stem cells and test tube babies for the most famous cases). The media story from the outset has been how is scientific discovery about treatment protocols being dispensed from officials. We've mostly heard mixed messages with health experts urging caution and political figures urging haste. In this case, we're not talking about efficacy, we're talking about risk. And further, how a science communication failure can lead to a public health disaster and, just as significantly, to reprisals in the administrative state, as we've seen with the developing story that Trump reassigned a staffer who tried to insist on resources not being diverted to the drugs on what was essentially an over-eager policy whim.

Even here in this thread, people are retorting about peer review from institutional sources while not even addressing the advocacy actions, which we can see more clearly why they could potentially be a mis-step. These are rhetorical choices people are making, largely based on media cultivation. The conversation is not about efficacy. It's about a lack of messaging discipline on how treatment and prevention protocols are being developed.

In part it's a function of a media hungry for novel developments and clear political incentives to give people hope, which is easy to understand, but there's something more fundamental at play here, which is the broad gap between the public understanding of science and how science is actually done. In a crisis or panic, officials are generally encouraged to apply the precautionary principle, but here we've seen the opposite.