Can Mighty Mouse be GOAT without going up?

[Filthy]

I think it's clear that MM is the P4P champ among active fighters. When you consider the quality of opponents, the way he fights, the way he finishes, the number of fights he takes every year...undisputed, IMO.

Is it possible for him to achieve GOAT status in the Flyweight division, or does he need to move up to Bantamweight and have success? If he can do it at Flyweight, what would it take - 20 consecutive title defenses? Taking out some contenders from Bantamweight, like Assuncao or Rivera?

What can MM do to convince the average fan that he's GOAT?

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

What can MM do to convince the average fan that he's GOAT?

For me personally he needs to move to BW, win the belt and have a run. I don't see how anyone can look at his strength of schedule and deduce that he's the GOAT. What he's done in the cage has been incredible but the current state of the FW division is that if you're in it, you're probably getting a title shot.

 

[benjo0101]

For me personally he needs to move to BW, win the belt and have a run. I don't see how anyone can look at his strength of schedule and deduce that he's the GOAT. What he's done in the cage has been incredible but the current state of the FW division is that if you're in it, you're probably getting a title shot.

Imagine if he did run through that division too. Be goat by all standards even if nobody wants to admit it.

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

Imagine if he did run through that division too. Be goat by all standards even if nobody wants to admit it.

Time will tell.

As truly impressive as his run has been running through the division it's paper thin. I'm not being flip, but is BW that much deeper?

 

[Gay For Longo]

For me personally he needs to move to BW, win the belt and have a run. I don't see how anyone can look at his strength of schedule and deduce that he's the GOAT. What he's done in the cage has been incredible but the current state of the FW division is that if you're in it, you're probably getting a title shot.

I agree to a point
We've seen MM at 135 and he's too small, mind you, he is a much better fighter now than he was back then

If he were to stay at 125, continue to dominate and then do 2 or 3 catchweight fights at 130 against Cruz, garbrandt and dillasnake and win those fights... he moves up to #1 GOAT in my book

As of right now he's obviously top 10 and creeping up on top 5 (think I have him #6 right now)
1- gsp
2- fedor
3- Jon Jones
4- Anderson Silva
5- Dominic Cruz
6- MM
Off the top of my head

 

[Filthy]

I agree to a point
We've seen MM at 135 and he's too small, mind you, he is a much better fighter now than he was back then

If he were to stay at 125, continue to dominate and then do 2 or 3 catchweight fights at 130 against Cruz, garbrandt and dillasnake and win those fights... he moves up to #1 GOAT in my book

As of right now he's obviously top 10 and creeping up on top 5 (think I have him #6 right now)
1- gsp
2- fedor
3- Jon Jones
4- Anderson Silva
5- Dominic Cruz
6- MM
Off the top of my head

I don't think MM is too small for BW, most of the guys running that division are the same height, just carrying more muscle on their frame. I don't think MM was anywhere near the complete MMA fighter then as he is now. No one that you have ahead of him has won belts in two divisions (GSP with the potential), or takes fights at the pace that MM does. If MM took a BW fight against a guy like Jimmie Rivera, and dominated/finished him, does he move up on your ranking? I also note that Jones and Silva are both PEDers, Fedor may have been PEDing in his Pride days (don't care). Does PED popping not influence your GOAT rankings?

 

[benjo0101]

Time will tell.

As truly impressive as his run has been running through the division it's paper thin. I'm not being flip, but is BW that much deeper?

I agree totally. But to do it at two weight classes would be impressive. It's no thicker but the guys at the top are pretty damn good. Just a couple of wins against champs or former champs and he would have a ridiculous record

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

I agree totally. But to do it at two weight classes would be impressive. It's no thicker but the guys at the top are pretty damn good. Just a couple of wins against champs or former champs and he would have a ridiculous record

I look at it this way, a title defense at FW, or WW is worth about 2 or more at any division higher or lower by virtue of the talent pool being that much deeper. It's been pointed out here many times that the HW top 10 has changed very little in 10 years. If we're being honest, LHW isn't that much different. The same will happen to FlyW and BW, they just aren't old enough for people to realize it yet.

It's part if the same reason why I find Conor's one and done title runs so underwhelming.

 

[Robbie Hart]

In 30 more years I'll advise on who the goat is.......

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

In 30 more years I'll advise on who the goat is.......

It'll still be GSP after he beats down Mikey Mike.

 

[benjo0101]

I look at it this way, a title defense at FW, or WW is worth about 2 or more at any division higher or lower by virtue of the talent pool being that much deeper. It's been pointed out here many times that the HW top 10 has changed very little in 10 years. If we're being honest, LHW isn't that much different. The same will happen to FlyW and BW, they just aren't old enough for people to realize it yet.

It's part if the same reason why I find Conor's one and done title runs so underwhelming.

Good point. I don't count them as two but I wouldn't judge someone for not fighting all the contenders at those divisions. But i get your point.

But imagine MM running through Cruz, tj and no love. If he did then surely he gets a ridiculous step up in his standing.

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

Good point. I don't count them as two but I wouldn't judge someone for not fighting all the contenders at those divisions. But i get your point.

But imagine MM running through Cruz, tj and no love. If he did then surely he gets a ridiculous step up in his standing.

Agree, but it still seems incredible underwhelming when you think of GSP fighting for the MW belt when his last fight was a 9th WW title defense.

 

[benjo0101]

Agree, but it still seems incredible underwhelming when you think of GSP fighting for the MW belt when his last fight was a 9th WW title defense.

Totally agree.

Personally I'm a huge mm fan. I want to see those three fights for him. No other fights are interesting at all.

If mm leaves the division to go up..... Yeesh it's a baron landscape

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

If mm leaves the division to go up..... Yeesh it's a baron landscape

and that's why I say he isn't really in the GOAT conversation.

 

[Filthy]

... it's a baron landscape

 

[benjo0101]

and that's why I say he isn't really in the GOAT conversation.

I disagree. But respectfully. I can understand your point of view.

What about if he went up and beat Cruz and TJ? Then unified the belts with a win over no love?
Not unified... You know what i mean

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

What about if he went up and beat Cruz and TJ? Then unified the belts with a win over no love?
Not unified... You know what i mean

Are any of the other BW champions in the GOAT conversation?

 

[benjo0101]

Are any of the other BW champions in the GOAT conversation?

Cruz. IMO

 

[Filthy]

and that's why I say he isn't really in the GOAT conversation.

Benavidez was a legit BW, came down to FW and lost to MM twice.
Same story for Dodson - KO'ed Dillishaw, came down to FW and lost to MM twice.

 

[benjo0101]

That was Different photo two minutes ago...

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

Benavidez was a legit BW, came down to FW and lost to MM twice.
Same story for Dodson - KO'ed Dillishaw, came down to FW and lost to MM twice.

Agree, but shedding an extra 10 pounds can effect drastically effect performance. I'm not suggesting MM isn't completely dominant. He may even be dominant at BW, but both of those divisions are thin.

The depth of MMA talent is, and always has been, in the middle (WW and FW) and continues to get thinner the farther away you get.

 

[Lukewarm Carl]

I think what he needs is for Benavidez and Cejudo or someone else to become his Big Nog and Cro Cop. Otherwise he will need to move up just to make a stronger case for himself.

I mean DJ is only 5'3" so if he can go back up and hang with some of the top guys at 135 now then that is tremendous. Cruz is on the big end of things at 5'8" and that was fairly evident when they fought before. Garbrandt is 5'7". There's a lot of size to deal with. Of course Torres is 5'9" and DJ was able to manage that fight ok when Torres was still a top dog and DJ hadn't become truly Mighty.

So he either needs to move up and take out a few bigger guys or he really needs someone else to make his record at 125 look more impressive like wins over Cro Cop and Big Nog did for Fedor.

 

[Gay For Longo]

I don't think MM is too small for BW, most of the guys running that division are the same height, just carrying more muscle on their frame. I don't think MM was anywhere near the complete MMA fighter then as he is now. No one that you have ahead of him has won belts in two divisions (GSP with the potential), or takes fights at the pace that MM does. If MM took a BW fight against a guy like Jimmie Rivera, and dominated/finished him, does he move up on your ranking? I also note that Jones and Silva are both PEDers, Fedor may have been PEDing in his Pride days (don't care). Does PED popping not influence your GOAT rankings?

Ped do influence my list or Jones and Silva would be ahead of fedor and possibly gsp imo
Many things influence my list, different for each person
A big part of my list is based on who they faced, the level of the competition, and especially for gsp, how he handled his loses (avenging those losses)
Another big part is who I personally enjoyed watching and definitely provides some bias

I'll go down the list and explain my reasoning for each fighter (there might be some fighters I forgot that deserve spots)

GSP - I think he faced the toughest competition on my list and avenged every loss on his record. he dominated the ww division for years and is unquestionably the greatest ww fighter of all time.
Also he's my favorite fighter, being Canadian, watching him come up, my 1st UFC event was gsp vs serra 2, but even without my bias I think he deserves to be atleast top 3 GOAT on anybody's list

Fedor - dominated the hw division for 10 years and I don't think there is any question he is the greatest hw of all time
Also some personal bias being a big pride fan back in the day

*Actually going to make a change to my list, Jones and/ore Silva shouldn't be in top 3 due to ped

3- Dominic Cruz - The greatest bw of all time! if it weren't for the injuries, and if he was defending the belt all those years, hed have an argument for #1
However, because of the injuries we got to know him much better and personally I became a big fan.
Then the way he came back from those injuries to win the belt again... his heart is truely remarkable

4 - Jon Jones - I think he's the most complete fighter we have ever seen in the octagon.
Hes cleared out lhw except Jimi (now that rumble is retired) and could (and will eventually) compete at hw
The way he handled DC and thinking of how DC handled the hw division while there, Jon should be the GOAT but he's a fucking idiot

5 - Anderson Silva - my favorite fighter to watch ever and probably the most exciting fighter to ever compete in the octagon (I'll admit conor is making a run at this title)
He cleared out mw, the knock is the division was pretty thin while champ
The thing that helps was him going up a division, looking incredible at that weight and beating a former lhw champ
Ped keeps him out of the top 3 and probably out of the top 5 on alot of lists

6 - MM - no doubt the greatest flyweight ever, has completely dominated the division and gotten better every fight at that division
The division is thin as fuck and that kills his chances at top 3 imo

2 other guys in my top 10 would be Dan Henderson and conor
I value clearing out a division more than i do skipping the line to get a chance at the title in the division above or below
This is why I have Cruz and MM ahead of a guy like conor
I have Cruz ahead of MM because of the tougher opponents imo

I can definitely see the argument for MM ahead of Jones and Silva, honestly I could see the argument for conor ahead of Jones and Silva too

I wouldn't argue with somebody having a top 5 of
GSP
Fedor
Cruz
MM
Conor

 

[dacofty]

I think it's clear that MM is the P4P champ among active fighters. When you consider the quality of opponents, the way he fights, the way he finishes, the number of fights he takes every year...undisputed, IMO.

Is it possible for him to achieve GOAT status in the Flyweight division, or does he need to move up to Bantamweight and have success? If he can do it at Flyweight, what would it take - 20 consecutive title defenses? Taking out some contenders from Bantamweight, like Assuncao or Rivera?

What can MM do to convince the average fan that he's GOAT?

Nothing because everyone knows he is the GOAT, those that dont are just trolls

 

[Ryann Von Doom]

No.