Joe Rogan calls for scoring and judging changes

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BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
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Not a horrible idea but this is a big advantage to strikers.
I don't know that's true, grappling is incredibly taxing. The downfall of grapplers is regularly gassing out. Shorter rounds and more breaks may actually be to their advantage. I do like 10-5-5, but we've already seen that, I don't think it's likely that commissions would veer even further away form the boxing model. Let's try something new.
 
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LurkenLikaGherkin

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Jan 16, 2015
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"Judges should be people who have been former fighters, coaches, and others who know the sport as good as those in the ring/cage so they can use their experience along with some stats to determine the winner."

^ this is really the main point.

The idea that you can come up with a "scientific" scoring system is delusional. The "meaning" of a punch, or number of strikes, is inevitably subjective. Here is why: how many "non-power" punches is a single "power" punch worth? There can't be a formal definition as there is so much variation between the types of strikes being thrown, how cleanly they land, how hard a puncher each combatant is, how heavily the striker sat down on the punch, etc. etc. etc..

It is actually in the instructions from the commission -- under the "unified rules" -- for judges that, for example, strikes from top position on the ground are to be weighted heavier than from the bottom, given the greater leverage from top position. How much greater? That's not clear, and it really can't be, for the same reason as applies to punches standing. One heavy elbow from mount that gets through cleanly, where the guy on bottom is just shelling unsuccessfully but otherwise not doing anything to prevent the striker from rearing all the way back and coming down with all his bodyweight behind the elbow is not the same as a heavy elbow where the guy on top is having to base out and stay low (preventing him from raising up to come down with his bodyweight behind the elbow).

So how many strikes from bottom, in guard, or very well leveraged and dangerous elbows from guard is that one max-powered elbow from mount worth?

It is very much subjective, and unless the entire system of judging changes (3 live judges unassisted by some kind of amazing computers that don't exist yet replaced by some other type of judges and technical assistance), it is NECESSARILY subjective. It is impossible for a human judge to see, tally, evaluate and keep track of all that is going on in a fight in a "scientific" way. Any one who cannot see that, or does not know that, is not qualified to judge or determine who gets to be a judge. Experience and understanding of what's going on dictates an understanding that subjective and intuitive judgment and evaluation are unavoidably in play.

Most of the judges for MMA in NV and NJ (the 2 most powerful commissions, though CA could be argued to have caught up to NJ at this point for MMA, if not for boxing) don't have even 2 years of legitimate grappling experience and 2 years of training in a striking art that includes real-life intensity sparring -- both of which should be a minimum level of experience to be thought of as even being capable of making literate subjective/intuitive evaluations of action in a fight in real time.

If you've never been on the receiving end of offense that is being applied, how can you possibly intuitively evaluate a combination of lesser strikes against a combination of, or even a single, heavy strike?

More, as I said before in an older thread, when no real scoring is actually happening, someone is more on the defensive end (not necessarily the guy backing up), while someone is more attacking. Most of the judges don't know enough about how the action combines to evaluate who is more "in charge" of what's going on at any given moment, i.e. who is in an attacking vs defensive mode (this is basically the content of "octagon control").

There are plenty of very trained people who would be honored and take pleasure in judging, and replacing the existing judges, so that fighters can depend on fair treatment when fights go to judges, instead of dreading an outcome that often seems completely random, and to have nothing to do with the fight's action. As it is, probably at least 2 of three judges for any MMA but in NV don't have 2 years of solid training any martial art practiced with at least occasional full intensity.

The problem is the commissions and the inexperienced and incompetent judges. Until you fix that, it doesn't matter what scoring system is in play.
 
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Zeph

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Jan 22, 2015
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Yeah I think we should probably start making more use of the 10 points, I don't know about going down that far but maybe hand out more 10-8/10-7 rounds... I think the biggest problem is we need something to differentiate between a close round that is just barely nicked by one guy and a round that is clearly won by another guy, but not dominant enough to warrant a 10-8.
I think half points could be really useful. I also like Joe Rogan's suggestion of more than 3 judges. 2 Judges somehow scored the Kish-Ansaroff 30-27 Kish, which is worse than any other scores that night, just truly dreadful, and if scoring like that is going to happen then hopefully more judges would help balance it out.
 

Ted Williams' head

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Sep 23, 2015
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"Judges should be people who have been former fighters, coaches, and others who know the sport as good as those in the ring/cage so they can use their experience along with some stats to determine the winner."
That's an interesting idea... buuuuuuuuuuuut.... then you run into the question of bias. The MMA circle is pretty tight, everyone knows everyone either directly or indirectly. I think at this juncture in the sport, it would be hard to find a prominent former fighter/coach who didn't have some connection (positive or negative) to at least one of the combatants.

And it might not be as outright as, say, Matt Hughes or Pat Miletech judging a Robbie Lawler fight. Maybe it's Rich Franklin judging a Mighty Mouse fight, where Franklin was once trained by Matt Hume and has a connection with him. Maybe it's a guy judging who once trained with one of the fighters, and they had bad blood. We can all think of a million scenarios.

Not that I'm saying regular judges can't be biased (or bought), I just think if you have ex-fighters and a controversial decision comes, we're going to get a lot of "OF COURSE HE THOUGHT HE WON, THEY TRAINED TOGETHER 10 YEARS AGO" or "OF COURSE HE VOTED AGAINST HIM, THE JUDGE WAS A STANDUP FIGHTER WHO HATES WRESTLERS/GRAPPLERS!" Know what I mean?
 

LurkenLikaGherkin

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That's an interesting idea... buuuuuuuuuuuut.... then you run into the question of bias. The MMA circle is pretty tight, everyone knows everyone either directly or indirectly. I think at this juncture in the sport, it would be hard to find a prominent former fighter/coach who didn't have some connection (positive or negative) to at least one of the combatants.

And it might not be as outright as, say, Matt Hughes or Pat Miletech judging a Robbie Lawler fight. Maybe it's Rich Franklin judging a Mighty Mouse fight, where Franklin was once trained by Matt Hume and has a connection with him. Maybe it's a guy judging who once trained with one of the fighters, and they had bad blood. We can all think of a million scenarios.

Not that I'm saying regular judges can't be biased (or bought), I just think if you have ex-fighters and a controversial decision comes, we're going to get a lot of "OF COURSE HE THOUGHT HE WON, THEY TRAINED TOGETHER 10 YEARS AGO" or "OF COURSE HE VOTED AGAINST HIM, THE JUDGE WAS A STANDUP FIGHTER WHO HATES WRESTLERS/GRAPPLERS!" Know what I mean?
Did I actually say/write the quoted bit as written? Don't have time to check right now. I don't believe in stats for judging. I think people who refer to "fightmetrix" thinking that it's a telltale yardstick for what's happened in a fight are very confused. Those stats are handy to look at, but they don't tellingly determine who won a fight or how a fight went, largely for reasons I mentioned in a different post (maybe in this thread, maybe a different one).

All strikes are not weighted equally, even within categories like "power punches" vs "non-power punches." Fightmetrix weights them all equally. If a guy lands one weak hook and 15 pitterpatter punches that don't hurt the opponent, and the opponent lands two heavy hooks cleanly that do have the power behind them to hurt the opponent, chances are (with my judging hat on), I would give the round to the 2 hooks guy, other things being equal. But, it's impossible to even talk about it realisitically without referring to specific, actual punches, which can't at this time be quantified with stats.

IF there was a magical machine that could quantify punches with a lot of accuracy as to how cleanly they landed, and how powerfully they were thrown, to a part of the body/head more or less vulnerable to being hurt (e.g. a hard assed punch to the top of the head is not worth as much as a medium shot cleanly landing on the chin, in most cases) -- if all those things could be measured realistically, as accurately as an "expert" eye can read them, then stats would be useful for judging in real time.
 

Ted Williams' head

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Sep 23, 2015
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True and I really don't think judging a fight is rocket science. There's a lot of judges that don't know how to score a fight, and there's a fuck load of fans that don't know how to score a fight either.

I know I'm going to piss some people off by saying this but anyone who thinks this was a clear cut victory or domination for either guy has no business scoring fights. On every judges card and every press scorecard (except one moron from Sherdog), this was a 3-2 fight for one or the other guy, and the only real questionable round was round 3, which could have went either way.

And I'm not saying people are wrong for thinking Condit won, if people think he won that 3rd round, that's a fair call because it was a close round. But for people to be shocked and saying it's one of the worst robberies they've ever seen... I don't think these people know what they're talking about. This was a razor thin call, it wasn't some 4-1 or 5-0 domination.