General JRE #961 Randall Carlson...Graham Hancock...Michael Shermer

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Yossarian

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I don't see why you think this is some sort of conspiracy to hide the ancient ruins..
You don't see it, because I don't think it is. Incompetence, arrogance, close-mindedness, that is what it is. An unwillingness to contradict another fellow scientist, that is what's going on. Only after decades somebody is willing to step up and possibly risk their career in doing so. Many scientist who did in the past got ridiculed, by their own peers. Not by some science denier, by their own kind. So let's not pretend that scientists are much better in being objective and accurate. They are not.

And it doesn't mean Hancock is right, but is after all, nothing but preliminary right?

Hey remember when the continental drift was considered crazy talk? 30 years after this scientist's death, only then mainstream science were willing to accept this preliminary nonsense as fact. Even though evidence was presented long before. Just one of the many examples.

So no, I am not listening to arrogance any more as I am willing to listen to journalism. I like the fact that archeology is discussed, and that science is talked about and considered by people other than academia and researchers. I am open to all possibilties regarding the Gobleki Tepe site, which is by itself a challenge to prior conventional thought. Interesting to see where it is going.
 

Robbie Hart

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Feb 13, 2015
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Haven't listened to this yet.
Is this podcast going to give me a headache?
 

Filthy

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You don't see it, because I don't think it is. Incompetence, arrogance, close-mindedness, that is what it is. An unwillingness to contradict another fellow scientist, that is what's going on. Only after decades somebody is willing to step up and possibly risk their career in doing so. Many scientist who did in the past got ridiculed, by their own peers. Not by some science denier, by their own kind. So let's not pretend that scientists are much better in being objective and accurate. They are not.

And it doesn't mean Hancock is right, but is after all, nothing but preliminary right?

Hey remember when the continental drift was considered crazy talk? 30 years after this scientist's death, only then mainstream science were willing to accept this preliminary nonsense as fact. Even though evidence was presented long before. Just one of the many examples.

So no, I am not listening to arrogance any more as I am willing to listen to journalism. I like the fact that archeology is discussed, and that science is talked about and considered by people other than academia and researchers. I am open to all possibilties regarding the Gobleki Tepe site, which is by itself a challenge to prior conventional thought. Interesting to see where it is going.
Again - assigning motive to the slow work of science. I get it - to you the world is a giant conspiracy. Projection much?
 

Yossarian

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Again - assigning motive to the slow work of science. I get it - to you the world is a giant conspiracy. Projection much?
Not at all. I just can't stand arrogance. Especially when it is far from deserved. WHen scientists make mistake, it is the slow work of science, when they are stubborn, it is preliminary reasoning. Meanwhile most researh ends up being proven wrong. Scientists make lots and lots of mistakes. But that is a godo thing, that is part of the process.
 

Rambo John J

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Change of nomenclature is hardly change in science. The problem with these guys is that the more assumptions your theory thinks to be true (objective science 101), the more the factors that influence it which ofcourse means that inevitably there are more holes that can be poked in a theory and it can fall apart. Ockham's razor is a great guide for anyone curious to figure out the cause, not the symptoms- the simplest explanation is most likely to be the reason,it is independent of the most variables and a correlation can be seen. Hancock chooses to make things fit his agenda and when called on it says he's merely a journalist reporting. This is charlatanism, just because it's plausible for Hancock's or the Carlson's theories to be true we are not, after a shitty podcast, about to change what is accepted as true to make them feel a part of the "mainstream science"(lol) circlejerk. From the podcast I could tell Shermer was thinking of telling Hancock he's seen as a bad joke in the field- but went around it in a more political way (especially at the start). That is the problem, these guys have no credibility in their field, its not that mainstream science doesn't want to look at their findings, its just that previous "findings" were bs.
The Santa looking feller also does the same. The funny thing about corrosion is that at the end it depends on the flux of water over that surface, and the total of that would be the same whether it was one GIGANTIC BIBLICAL MEGAFLOOD or just a long period of rainfall. So yeah, good luck proving that...just because it COULD be so, it doesn't mean it is, and that's what guys like Joe Rogan don't understand.
Ya sidestep addressing any and all specific arguments and just generally bash character...without making a single observation of what has been found by science and does warrant a second look.

Your a pro skeptic bro.

SMH
 

Rambo John J

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Really hilarious how invested some people are in protecting their ego instead of actually asking each other the question....Why and for what reason would humans be creating such a structure at such and early time in the mainstream accepted model of Human History?

Why are we not discussing this?

EGO and DENIAL are the forefront of this entire debate and even the discussion in this thread.

Pretty sad and also a good indicator of how difficult it is to even ask the question.

Filthy and Ghost Bro...take away all the personalities and their credentials or lack thereof...leave the character assassinations at the door(how you didn't learn how bad that looks is beyond me).

What do you think about the structure?
We need actual discussion
 

Rambo John J

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Max Planck sums it all up very well IMO

Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck (23 April18584 October1947) is the originator of modern quantum theories and one of the most important German physicists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, winning the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1918.

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

Paraphrased versions...

  • "Truth never triumphs—its opponents just die out."
  • "Science advances one funeral at a time"
I find this incredibly accurate and also disturbing...Science really is that stubborn.

Another great quote from Max

"New scientific ideas never spring from a communal body, however organized, but rather from the head of an individually inspired researcher who struggles with his problems in lonely thought and unites all his thought on one single point which is his whole world for the moment."

I present these as food for thought for the staunch character assassinating defenders of science.
 

Zeph

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You don't see it, because I don't think it is. Incompetence, arrogance, close-mindedness, that is what it is. An unwillingness to contradict another fellow scientist, that is what's going on.
Scientists make their careers contradicting other scientists.
 

Zeph

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Max Planck sums it all up very well IMO

Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck (23 April18584 October1947) is the originator of modern quantum theories and one of the most important German physicists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, winning the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1918.

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

Paraphrased versions...

  • "Truth never triumphs—its opponents just die out."
  • "Science advances one funeral at a time"
I find this incredibly accurate and also disturbing...Science really is that stubborn.

Another great quote from Max

"New scientific ideas never spring from a communal body, however organized, but rather from the head of an individually inspired researcher who struggles with his problems in lonely thought and unites all his thought on one single point which is his whole world for the moment."

I present these as food for thought for the staunch character assassinating defenders of science.
What Hancock does isn't science, if anything he's a historian, but a bad historian. He only focuses on what supports his theory and ignores what doesn't fit or other possible explanations. Maybe he is right, but he won't convince people because he refuses to address the many holes, and because it happened so long ago there is little chance of him being proved conclusively wrong, which he exploits to the fullest. He just isn't very convincing in his arguments.
 

Rambo John J

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What Hancock does isn't science, if anything he's a historian, but a bad historian. He only focuses on what supports his theory and ignores what doesn't fit or other possible explanations. Maybe he is right, but he won't convince people because he refuses to address the many holes, and because it happened so long ago there is little chance of him being proved conclusively wrong, which he exploits to the fullest. He just isn't very convincing in his arguments.
Not talking about Graham Hancock at all. I am pointing out how open "science" is...in a quote from a famous and decorated Scientist.

I am thinking on my own and taking in published findings about ancient civilizations...Graham is a mere trickle in the stream IMO....Take a step back and examine this without Graham...I am curious to have actual discussion on the site or any theory anyone cares to bring up.

Something was going on and we should be discussing that.

Funny that you guys keep telling everyone Graham is not a scientist...LOL no shit that has been established.

If you need concrete evidence to prove a definitive version of our past then you will always be disappoint son.


Archeology is full of speculation and theory and our previously accepted version is not exactly provable in a lab...way to much missing data to 100% say we know what went down.

Discuss...pontificate.
 

Rambo John J

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I got a feeling some of you have not looked into any of the work that catches Randall and Grahams attention...Until you do and address what those established scientist published then you are just being close minded plain and simple....speaking definitively about a subject you have barely looked at is just ignorance an uneducated.
 

Ghost Bro

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Not talking about Graham Hancock at all. I am pointing out how open "science" is...in a quote from a famous and decorated Scientist.

I am thinking on my own and taking in published findings about ancient civilizations...Graham is a mere trickle in the stream IMO....Take a step back and examine this without Graham...I am curious to have actual discussion on the site or any theory anyone cares to bring up.

Something was going on and we should be discussing that.

Funny that you guys keep telling everyone Graham is not a scientist...LOL no shit that has been established.

If you need concrete evidence to prove a definitive version of our past then you will always be disappoint son.


Archeology is full of speculation and theory and our previously accepted version is not exactly provable in a lab...way to much missing data to 100% say we know what went down.

Discuss...pontificate.
What if it was Ancient Aliens? Surely we must give this theory equal weight!
 

Filthy

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What if it was Ancient Aliens? Surely we must give this theory equal weight!
No, Bro. It was a highly evolved human civilization that left no trace of their own existence, not a highly evolved alien civilization that left no trace of their own existence. They vanished from of an unknowable island in the middle of the ocean, not an unknowable planet in the middle of space.

You're just talking crazy.
 

Filthy

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I got a feeling some of you have not looked into any of the work that catches Randall and Grahams attention...Until you do and address what those established scientist published then you are just being close minded plain and simple....speaking definitively about a subject you have barely looked at is just ignorance an uneducated.
I get the feeling that a lot of you have not looked in to advancement of scientific knowledge beyond movies and conspiracy websites.

to quote Graham Hancock - "NOT MY FUCKING PROBLEM."
 

Filthy

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Not talking about Graham Hancock at all. I am pointing out how open "science" is...in a quote from a famous and decorated Scientist.

I am thinking on my own and taking in published findings about ancient civilizations...Graham is a mere trickle in the stream IMO....Take a step back and examine this without Graham...I am curious to have actual discussion on the site or any theory anyone cares to bring up.

Something was going on and we should be discussing that.

Funny that you guys keep telling everyone Graham is not a scientist...LOL no shit that has been established.

If you need concrete evidence to prove a definitive version of our past then you will always be disappoint son.


Archeology is full of speculation and theory and our previously accepted version is not exactly provable in a lab...way to much missing data to 100% say we know what went down.

Discuss...pontificate.
not all data is created equal. Discuss.

Pontificate.
 

Rambo John J

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No, Bro. It was a highly evolved human civilization that left no trace of their own existence, not a highly evolved alien civilization that left no trace of their own existence. They vanished from of an unknowable island in the middle of the ocean, not an unknowable planet in the middle of space.

You're just talking crazy.
you have addressed nothing....you dip and dive and squirm

that isn't science or even discussion

Your mind is made up....to be closed

Sorry guy your doing the Shermer

This is not about anything other than Gobekli Tepe and the possibility of comet strikes.
 

Filthy

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do you understand the difference between possibility and probability?
 

Ghost Bro

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For the record Rambo John J @Rambo John J I like you a lot, you're a fun guy, but you have to draw the line with openmindedness somewhere, if your mind is totally open, your brain just falls apart, picture it:p

Perhaps I could be more like Joe and #QuestionEverything, but at some point asking open ended questions about all the various possibilities is actually detrimental to progress. Regarding the structure, it is certainly fascinating, but it is not out of the ordinary, if I recall (didn't get to hear a lot of details about this in this podcast as I recall, which was a damn shame but anyway) it is a structure with megaliths (oldest known thus far- Neolithic?). It could have been anything from a place of worship (as stonehenge) to a palace/fortified settlement. Due to the proximity to caves I would guess it was probably part of what could later have become a city. There's plenty of cool things about it on the wiki, including the founder's interpretation.
 

Rambo John J

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Ghost Bro @Ghost Bro

"Regarding the structure, it is certainly fascinating, but it is not out of the ordinary, if I recall (didn't get to hear a lot of details about this in this podcast as I recall, which was a damn shame but anyway) it is a structure with megaliths (oldest known thus far- Neolithic?). It could have been anything from a place of worship (as stonehenge) to a palace/fortified settlement. Due to the proximity to caves I would guess it was probably part of what could later have become a city. There's plenty of cool things about it on the wiki, including the founder's interpretation."

Finally a single comment about the topic that was and should be debated, from the Skeptic/debunk mindset guys....Thank you...This is what our discussion should really consist of...because we don't know and it is unlikely we find evidence that will 100% convince all of Science...after 13,000 years nearly everything turns back to dust unless intentionally preserved(example...Gobekli Tepe)

FYI Joe Rogan questions anything was a joke and more aimed at debunking, seemed to be joe making faces at the camera and acting as the extreme skeptic(barely watched any of it...very cringeworthy IMO)

I will agree to disagree about the not asking open ended questions part...I find that is the key to a minds growth...I also see how it is difficult for science to take such a path

I hope to learn more about what the heck humans were doing at that time and why...hopefully more amazing discovery is on the horizon.

Enjoy
 

Rambo John J

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do you understand the difference between possibility and probability?
No you are infinitely smarter than I am...you have made that very clear.

Discuss the findings or don't, but stop trying to check the level of someones intellect via keyboard conversation.

I have read 5 separate source materials of documented and published findings since I saw that podcast...These were mentioned and I looked them up and read them myself...very interesting IMO.

Have you read anything on your own about this subject?

Or are you just trying to discredit anybody who is curious/interested still?

I still cannot get over this quote by you...LOL you don't even want to consider possibility...
"But only Rogan/Hancock are profiting by making the hard work of scientific discovery more difficult."

I re-read this thread and I really can't talk about this anymore unless you want actually state what you think was going on at the site discussed...your comments are nearly all attempts to discredit anyone interested without addressing the actual topic.

If Gobekli Tepe and the possibility of an nearly earth clearing comet strike is so crazy to you...why are you even giving it legs by discussing it.

It feels like a self defense response to me and that is not how I go about discussion.

Enjoy

PS I am rather educated and well read...My vocabulary is vast...Cock is average...I am not trying to have a pissing contest with anybody...I just think ancient civilizations are fascination,g whether those people were advanced or primitive.
 

Filthy

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No you are infinitely smarter than I am...you have made that very clear.

Discuss the findings or don't, but stop trying to check the level of someones intellect via keyboard conversation.

I have read 5 separate source materials of documented and published findings since I saw that podcast...These were mentioned and I looked them up and read them myself...very interesting IMO.

Have you read anything on your own about this subject?

Or are you just trying to discredit anybody who is curious/interested still?

I still cannot get over this quote by you...LOL you don't even want to consider possibility...
"But only Rogan/Hancock are profiting by making the hard work of scientific discovery more difficult."

I re-read this thread and I really can't talk about this anymore unless you want actually state what you think was going on at the site discussed...your comments are nearly all attempts to discredit anyone interested without addressing the actual topic.

If Gobekli Tepe and the possibility of an nearly earth clearing comet strike is so crazy to you...why are you even giving it legs by discussing it.

It feels like a self defense response to me and that is not how I go about discussion.

Enjoy

PS I am rather educated and well read...My vocabulary is vast...Cock is average...I am not trying to have a pissing contest with anybody...I just think ancient civilizations are fascination,g whether those people were advanced or primitive.
If you want to say you're educated, put your credentials on the table. Reading sourced material only matters if the sources are reliable and correctly explain most of the evidence that is known.

I'm not really convinced that it was a temple or a sacred site. There's evidence to support both the sacred and the profane at Gobekli Tepe, but there's no other site like it to give correlation or context. I do think that there's an incredible lack of evidence if you want to state anything further than "we've probably underestimated the organizational skills of hunter-gatherers in that region at that time." But I see Hancock repeatedly cherry-picking data points that seem to support his speculation, inasmuch as he removes them from any context or contradictory evidence, and then runs down a wild string to end up at Atlantis/Comets.

It's possible that cultures so far removed from each other developed completely independently. The site of Gobekli Tepe could have been so rich in resources that hunter-gatherers were able to do what could only be accomplished by agriculture in any place without the same over-abundance. Societies scatter or die all the time, especially in the ancient world.

It's an outlier in the data. That doesn't mean that we dismiss it, it means that we use it to scrutinize the data that we have, and we use the data we have to scrutinize Gobekli Tepe...

It certainly doesn't mean that Atlantis was real or that the only way Gobekli Tepe could come in to being was by a SuperSociety that didn't use metal or language and left no trace of itself.
 

Rambo John J

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If you want to say you're educated, put your credentials on the table. Reading sourced material only matters if the sources are reliable and correctly explain most of the evidence that is known.

I'm not really convinced that it was a temple or a sacred site. There's evidence to support both the sacred and the profane at Gobekli Tepe, but there's no other site like it to give correlation or context. I do think that there's an incredible lack of evidence if you want to state anything further than "we've probably underestimated the organizational skills of hunter-gatherers in that region at that time." But I see Hancock repeatedly cherry-picking data points that seem to support his speculation, inasmuch as he removes them from any context or contradictory evidence, and then runs down a wild string to end up at Atlantis/Comets.

It's possible that cultures so far removed from each other developed completely independently. The site of Gobekli Tepe could have been so rich in resources that hunter-gatherers were able to do what could only be accomplished by agriculture in any place without the same over-abundance. Societies scatter or die all the time, especially in the ancient world.

It's an outlier in the data. That doesn't mean that we dismiss it, it means that we use it to scrutinize the data that we have, and we use the data we have to scrutinize Gobekli Tepe...

It certainly doesn't mean that Atlantis was real or that the only way Gobekli Tepe could come in to being was by a SuperSociety that didn't use metal or language and left no trace of itself.
LOL...Dude Filthy @Filthy bro I am not hancock or defending him...how many posts does it take to get that.

Hilarious really

I am Rambo John J. speak to me about my beliefs..and opinions, not those of another human.

Never have I said that I endorse or believe in a single thing Randall or Graham have said should be thought of as fact....I entertain the idea....I have my own questions and some of those are different from theirs...Is that wrong of me to have questions?

The fact you cannot entertain an Idea...and instead just strike it down with great vengeance and furious anger is what is really interesting here.


Who is "we"?
You seem to imply you are in that field.
 

Filthy

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all ideas are not equal. Hancock's ideas are ridiculous and his methods belong in the Dark Ages.

Anyone who entertains his ideas longer than the time required to make that valuation is wasting their time, or is not capable of assigning value to ideas.

But it should be recognized that you read five whole articles on the subject (WITH citations), AND listened to a podcast. I've told you what I think of Gobekli Tepe. I anxiously await the articulation of your 'beliefs' on the subject.