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Qat

QoQ
Nov 3, 2015
16,379
22,495
I'm not agreeing with the violence from certain parts of the anti-fa protestors, but then you have to be willfully ignorant to ignore all the legitimate examples of Nazism from the people they are protesting against. There are even examples of locals joining the anti-fa protestors because they see the Nazi salutes. Not all of the people who attended Trump rallies, and it seems especially in Berkley, were Nazi's, just as not all anti-fa protestors were violent, but defending one side while not recognising what sparked the protest seems naive to me.

I've got Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism, somewhere, from my uni days, in which he expands upon his 5 stages. Lets take a quick look at his 5 stages and then his updated definition from Anatomy. From his wiki, since it easier than typing them out, here they are.

  1. Intellectual exploration, where disillusionment with popular democracy manifests itself in discussions of lost national vigor
  2. Rooting, where a fascist movement, aided by political deadlock and polarization, becomes a player on the national stage
  3. Arrival to power, where conservatives seeking to control rising leftist opposition invite the movement to share power
  4. Exercise of power, where the movement and its charismatic leader control the state in balance with state institutions such as the police and traditional elites such as the clergy and business magnates.
  5. Radicalization or entropy, where the state either becomes increasingly radical, as did Nazi Germany, or slips into traditional authoritarian rule, as did Fascist Italy.

1. Talks about lost national vigor which was central to Trump's campaign, for that you just have to look at his slogan Make America Great Again, it embodies this stage.

2. I think it's fair to say that the political polarization has led to this and that Trump is a player on the national stage. The Republicans had just spent the previous 8 years being the party of No, blocking and obstructing anything they could. Blocking 82 presidential nominees, when there had been a total of 86 blocks of all previous presidents. As well as 500 fillibustered bills.

3. Many Never Trumpers are firmly in the Trump camp now, and that started happening around the time of the Republican convention. Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Ted Cruz, Reince Preibus all kissed the ring.

4. Trump has made lot of rhetoric about strengthening the police state, as well as inviting traditional elite such as wall street bankers, and the clergy(Pence) into his administration.

5. Is a work in progress. Trump blamed the checks and balances of the constitution for his poor performance in the first 100 days. Which Preibus expanded on saying there might need to be an amendment, or two, specially about libel laws, so they can sue the press over stories they don't like. The filibuster has already been removed. He's also attacked the press stocking existing concerns about them, although they don't help themselves.


So Trump definitely fits within Paxton's 5 stages. Here's his upgraded definition from Anatomy..

Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.


Trump is well on the way with both definitions. The other fourteen characteristics are actually more defining than Paxton's, and some disagree with Paxton's assertion that there has to be external expansion for a state to be fascist. After all, Franco's Spain did not pursue external expansion, but is definitely a fascist state. To say that most nations fit within those fourteen characteristics is just plainly wrong.

As I said, Trump himself has displayed fascist tendencies with his rhetoric, if you fail to see it that is because of an ignorance of what fascist rhetoric is, which leads to calling anti-fa protesters fascists when they aren't.
I specifically found his tweet of "we need to vote more reps in, or change the rules" very telling. Hello Trumpogan.
 

Yossarian

TMMAC Addict
Oct 25, 2015
13,485
19,123
I'm not agreeing with the violence from certain parts of the anti-fa protestors, but then you have to be wilfully ignorant to ignore all the legitimate examples of Nazism from the people they are protesting against. There are even examples of locals joining the anti-fa protestors because they see the Nazi salutes. Not all of the people who attended Trump rallies, and it seems especially in Berkley, were Nazi's, just as not all anti-fa protestors were violent, but defending one side while not recognising what sparked the protest seems naive to me.

I've got Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism, somewhere, from my uni days, in which he expands upon his 5 stages. Lets take a quick look at his 5 stages and then his updated definition from Anatomy. From his wiki, since it easier than typing them out, here they are.

  1. Intellectual exploration, where disillusionment with popular democracy manifests itself in discussions of lost national vigor
  2. Rooting, where a fascist movement, aided by political deadlock and polarization, becomes a player on the national stage
  3. Arrival to power, where conservatives seeking to control rising leftist opposition invite the movement to share power
  4. Exercise of power, where the movement and its charismatic leader control the state in balance with state institutions such as the police and traditional elites such as the clergy and business magnates.
  5. Radicalization or entropy, where the state either becomes increasingly radical, as did Nazi Germany, or slips into traditional authoritarian rule, as did Fascist Italy.

1. Talks about lost national vigor which was central to Trump's campaign, for that you just have to look at his slogan Make America Great Again. It embodies this stage.

2. I think it's fair to say that the political polarization has led to this and that Trump is a player on the national stage. The Republicans had just spent the previous 8 years being the party of No, blocking and obstructing anything they could. Blocking 82 presidential nominees, when there had been a total of 86 blocks of all previous presidents. As well as 500 filibustered bills.

3. Many Never Trumpers are firmly in the Trump camp now, and that started happening around the time of the Republican convention. Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Ted Cruz, Reince Preibus all kissed the ring.

4. Trump has made a lot of rhetoric about strengthening the police state, as well as inviting traditional elite, such as wall street bankers and the clergy(Pence), into his administration.

5. Is a work in progress. Trump blamed the checks and balances of the constitution for his poor performance in the first 100 days. Which Preibus expanded on saying there might need to be an amendment, or two, specially about libel laws, so they can sue the press over stories they don't like. The filibuster has already been removed. He's also attacked the press stoking existing concerns about them, although they don't help themselves.


So Trump definitely fits within Paxton's 5 stages. Here's his upgraded definition from Anatomy.

Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.


Trump is well on the way with both definitions. The other fourteen characteristics are actually more defining than Paxton's, and some disagree with Paxton's assertion that there has to be external expansion for a state to be fascist. After all, Franco's Spain did not pursue external expansion, but is definitely a fascist state. To say that most nations fit within those fourteen characteristics is just plainly wrong.

As I said, Trump himself has displayed fascist tendencies with his rhetoric. If you fail to see it that is because of an ignorance of what fascist rhetoric is, which leads to calling anti-fa protesters fascists when they aren't.
You highlight (nationalist) that one word to make your point? While all of the rest clearly point at the direction of Anti-fa. Anit-fa does not know what fascism is, but use ironicaly similar tactics to get their point accross. If you go by the definition of the word, fascism is supposed to oppose capitalism. Now how can Trump be a fascist? If you really want to go by the exact defintion(s) then Trump is no less of a fascist than Anti-fa.

Anti-fa calls out people as Nazis and Fascists much like McCarthy did in the cold war. A witch-hunt.

The US government is a lot of things, but they are not fascist. Misguided hooligans, that is what (antifa) they are, no matter how dumb Trump is. To claim the the US is a fascist government, THAT is plainly wrong. We have the courts, a constitution, and congress to prove you otherwise.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
24,348
31,961
You highlight (nationalist) that one word to make your point? While all of the rest clearly point at the direction of Anti-fa. Anit-fa does not know what fascism is, but use ironicaly similar tactics to get their point accross. If you go by the definition of the word, fascism is supposed to oppose capitalism. Now how can Trump be a fascist? If you really want to go by the exact defintion(s) then Trump is no less of a fascist than Anti-fa.

Anti-fa calls out people as Nazis and Fascists much like McCarthy did in the cold war. A witch-hunt.

The US government is a lot of things, but they are not fascist. Misguided hooligans, that is what (antifa) they are, no matter how dumb Trump is. To claim the the US is a fascist government, THAT is plainly wrong. We have the courts, a constitution, and congress to prove you otherwise.
ok m8
 

Qat

QoQ
Nov 3, 2015
16,379
22,495
There were one or two advertised on this forum as well iirc. Which of course is a good cause, but the thought that you have to make an emotive presentation exposing your family to beg for other people's money in order to get your kid that needed surgery, is literally sickening to me. That shouldn't be needed in the 1st world, at all.