I Wasn’t Afraid of Anyone: The Vernon White Interview
Part Three of Three: Gym Challenge Matches and Working in the WWF
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
William Colosimo: So now we’re talking UFC 1, 2, 3 era. In the gym, once Ken lost to Royce that first time, how obsessed was he with getting revenge on Royce, and was it affecting him as far as was Ken putting Pancrase fights almost secondary and was his whole reason for being to crush Royce eventually?
Vernon White: Yes. We actually went to I believe it was Red Bluff or Redding, California. We were going to a gym out there, and these guys were judo and jiu-jitsu people- that’s all they did. And Ken was grabbing them by the gi and throwing them- but he was also learning. He gave these guys videos, and had them watch Royce, and then had them try to do what Royce was going to do, it was just… he was obsessed beyond all belief. Like, you just mention Royce and you could see the blood pressure rising. I remember mentioning something, and the look on his face was like he wanted to take me in the ring and beat me up. He almost thought that I was questioning how tough he was. And I learned not to say certain things around Ken anymore. I even learned to not wear certain clothes around Ken, because he would get upset about that too.
Colosimo: Ken’s mentioned a couple things that bother him over the years about that Royce loss. But back then, do you remember what his main argument or main gripe was against Royce?
White: Yes. That he couldn’t wear his shoes, but Royce got to wear a gi. That was his main concern. Because it was a weapon. Royce could reach around and grab his gi and hang on to Ken’s back, and Ken couldn’t get out. Because it’s causing friction. And also from what I understand they told Ken right before the fight that he couldn’t wear his shoes, but they’re allowing Royce to wear a gi- so, if you want someone to have an even fight, then why are you giving one person a weapon and then taking something that could possibly be considered a weapon from someone else?
Colosimo: Absolutely. That’s the same reason he gives now, I was just curious if it was what he was saying years ago. Guy Mezger was in the stands at UFC 3, and he met Ken and Bob there. After UFC 3 Guy came to the Lion’s Den for his tryout, and I understand for his tryout he had to fight you for part of the initiation. Can you tell me about that fight with Guy?
White: He was tough. He was heavier than me. He had good balance. I had some fights in Pancrase, but it was just one of those things. He had a little more experience fighting than I did. I did what I could. I caught him in some submission holds, he mostly would punch me in the shoulders (laughter), so I couldn’t put my hands up, and at the end of it I went to go drink some water and when I lifted the bottle up it hit me in the face. I was tough, and I didn’t realize how much punishment getting hit in the shoulders was actually doing to me, and I started doing that to people because Guy did it to me.
Colosimo: Very interesting.
White: Yeah, like I said Guy had some techniques. We were both stand-up. I believe he had some judo as well. The only ground technique that I had was from the Lion’s Den (Editor’s Note: Guy informed me that by the time of his Lion’s Den tryout he had a first degree black belt in judo. He was also a high school and college wrestler).
Colosimo: Scott told me something interesting a while ago, he said that you for whatever reason had challenge matches in the gym, fights with UFC 1 vet Zane Frazier and UFC 3 vet Roland Payne. Did these fights happen? And why?
White: Yes, because Ken… Ken wanted me to test myself. Zane Frazier-
Colosimo: He wanted to join the Den or something?
White: He wanted to train for some fights, yeah. But I don’t think he was ready for our regimen, for everything that we were going to be doing. During that time, he eye gouged me- which pissed me off- and he said “No, I’m done.” He actually quit during the tryout.
Colosimo: And then Roland Payne- he was that Thai boxer with wrestling, he fought Harold Howard in UFC 3- what was the story with him? When did you fight him?
White: I don’t remember the time, I don’t remember much about it, either. Ken would have me fight whoever. I think he basically was testing these people against me, against my fighting spirit. And to get their fighting spirit. Because he knew that I wasn’t afraid of anyone. After being punched by him, I mean, I wasn’t worried about getting hit by anybody else, and I would go in balls out.
Colosimo: Do you remember fighting any other known non Lion’s Den fighters like those, in gym challenge matches? Any other names we might know?
White: No, not in gym challenges, no.
Colosimo: The sixteen-man KOP tournament- that took place December 16th and 17th of ’94- how did the team train for this one, and what was the mentality going in? You, Ken, Jason, and Frank were all in the tournament, there was a chance you guys might have had to fight.
White: Right. Ken made us work on our weaknesses, not our strengths. Because he knew that we would be okay in our strengths. He knew at any time that somebody could get hurt, so we had to be ready. So he would make us do ten minute rounds, with a new guy every one minute. And everybody had to do it, there was no “Oh, I’m tired, I can’t help”- no, we all went through it. Ken helped, Frank helped, he (Ken) did his rounds, and he would always make me go last- always. And I think that’s probably why my stamina was really good. No one got to sit out- even if you were hurt- you get in and you do the best that you can do to help out your teammate.
Colosimo: You guys trained pretty brutally, and you fought regularly- there had to be a lot of injuries. At what point would Ken let you reasonably sit out for a while? I know Sean got injured with his neck, he was there for a number of weeks and he wasn’t able to do anything and had to go home. How injured would he let you get before he would say “Okay, take some time off”?
White: I’m glad he let Sean take some time off because he broke my rib, told me it wasn’t broken, I went to the chiropractor, the chiropractor said “Oh no, it’s not broke.” I’m like “Look. I’ve never had a broken bone before- but this is broken.”
Colosimo: That was Ken or Sean that broke it?
White: Ken broke it. I think he was training for his fight with Lobman. And, he just punched me in the rib so hard that I felt my rib separate. It felt like… you know how when you take a rib and you pop it? That’s what it felt like, except for I was in pain- I wasn’t getting to eat (laughter).
Colosimo: And you think that might have been for his kickboxing fight with Frank Lobman?
White: That was for his fight with Frank Lobman, yeah. Because he was thinking about being able to get in close and punch him in the ribs. And he was headhunting me to get my hands up, he got my hands up, “boom”- the rib went- and I got a little bit of time off. And I had a fight coming up. He had gave me some supplements to help me heal faster- it worked- and then I went and I fought (Editor’s Note: Vernon’s first fight after Ken’s kickboxing venture was versus Remco Pardoel, on the July 6th, 1994 Pancrase card). So I’m glad that Sean got that time off, he wouldn’t give me time off like that. I had to spend three weeks to not get punched- but I still had to teach classes, I had to roll a little bit. I had some bandages around my rib cage, and I was out there rolling with people.
Colosimo: So, still on the KOP tournament, what are your thoughts on your first round win versus Leon Van Dijk? What do you remember about that?
White: I remember being happy, because he was one of Bas’s guys, and Bas is known for training with tough people. I knew he was all stand-up, so I knew if I could get him to the ground and throw him in a heel hook that I’d win. And I did.
Colosimo: Your second round match, that was a rematch with Masakatsu Funaki, and I think the main event of that show. What are your memories of that fight?
White: I believe that was when he hit me with a knee and knocked me out.
Colosimo: That was your first Funaki fight, March ’94, knee to the body KO (knock out).
White: Was that? Okay. That one, I remember that one (mutual laughter). The only reason I remember that one was because- that knee to the body- I had never been hit by anybody that hard, ever. And I thought to myself “I will never go down to another body shot like that again. Ever.” (Editor’s Note: Vernon fought Mr. Funaki three times)
Colosimo: If you take Bas out of the equation, I’ve heard that Funaki was pretty much the most devastating striker there. Did you see it like that?
White: When he put his mind to it- yeah. When I watched him go against some guys that had really good striking, he was more towards taking them down and getting them on the mat. But yeah, I’d have to say that Funaki was a very devastating striker.
Colosimo: In December of ’95 two Lion’s Den members finally did fight on an event when you fought Frank. Why was that fight made?
White: I think it’s because Ken wanted it.
Colosimo: He requested it?
White: I think so. And me and Frank were buttin’ heads a little bit, so Ken was like “Well, this is bound to happen- so let’s do it.”
Colosimo: He got out of Folsom (State Prison) and went right to the Den. Sean had mentioned Frank’s attitude back then, he was kind of a scary guy to be around- I’m starting to wonder if he was ever able to adjust to being outside.
White: Well he was always a manipulator. And I grew up around guys like that, I wasn’t scared of Frank. My mom had spent some time in prison, and when she got out, that’s all she ever hung out with after that was dudes that were in prison. So, that lifestyle- I even work at a prison now- none of them scare me, and they can’t figure out why. It’s like “Because I grew up around idiots like you.”
Colosimo: Very interesting. Now in July of ’96 you were able to beat Suzuki in your rematch. What did that win mean to you?
White: It meant a lot (laughter), because Suzuki beat me after two minutes and thirty-eight seconds in our first match. And I had watched him have a match with Guy, and Guy hurt him bad with body shots. I remember Guy telling me “Aim for the scar! Aim for the scar!” and I’m like “Okay!” I’m in there, just doing spinning kicks and trying to hit Suzuki. Finally, I had started getting some really good shots in, and I’m pretty sure that those shots to the body made it so he wasn’t that… normally his stamina was awesome, but he got tired during that match. I’m targeting his body as much as I possibly could because I wanted that win so bad. And I got it.
Colosimo: The scar that Guy was telling you to aim for- did he have some kind of recent surgery?
White: I believe it was his sternum that he had surgery on, because of Guy.
Colosimo: Yeah, Guy had two pretty brutal fights with him. But anyway, you followed that Suzuki win with another win, against Yoshiki Takahashi, September of ’96, on the Pancrase third anniversary event. You beat Takahashi prior to this, and in this one he was taking a lot of shots on the feet but he seemed to insist on fighting on the feet, and refused to do his takedowns. Do you think he was trying to prove a point with you?
White: Um, I was just hoping I knocked him silly, but that’s a possibility.
Colosimo: I didn’t know if he was so much of a wild man that he was being stubborn, or what. But you obviously did knock him silly.
White: (Laughter) I would like to say that I hit him so hard that he couldn’t find a shot, you know? Or he couldn’t find his spacing to take any shots. Or, maybe he did feel like he could weather the storm and then come in and knock me out. ‘Cause he threw a lot of head shots in that fight, I remember that fight too.
Colosimo: Did you ever hang out with him much, maybe any partying in Roppongi (Editor’s Note: Roppongi is a district in Tokyo, Japan known for its foreigner friendly nightlife)? Or any training in the gym?
White: You know, Takahashi, he didn’t hang out with us foreigners that much.
Colosimo: I don’t get the impression a lot of the Japanese did. Or did they?
White: Well, they would take us out. One of the guys, I believe he owned two Korean barbecues, and he would take us to those Korean barbecues and hang out with us. So there was a couple times that he was doing that. But for the most part, we fended for ourselves. There was a bar called Gas Panic, and we used to go to Gas Panic a lot.
Colosimo: You beat Suzuki, you beat Takahashi, and then the following month in October of ’96 you fought Osami Shibuya- that was a loss, and that was your last fight for the organization. So, was your exit from the organization collateral damage from the issues Ken was having with Pancrase at the time?
White: I don’t know. If it was, it was. My life didn’t end with that fight, it actually helped me because I had come into MMA and I was winning. So…
Colosimo: How do you remember that going down? Finding out you’re not going back anymore?
White: I was a little upset, because I liked it, and I actually had a girlfriend over there. So I used to love seeing her, and then it kind of ruined that. Then, something had happened with Ken, and they started bringing me over to PRIDE (KRS [Kakutougi Revolutionary Spirits]-PRIDE). So, that was kind of nice- to go back for PRIDE.
Colosimo: Literally the next month after that Shibuya fight, you had jumped into NHB. You had a good showing- that was the WVC show, I believe (Editor’s Note: The World Vale Tudo Championship 2, held on November 10th, 1996- where Vernon lost to Pedro Rizzo in the finals of the 8-man tournament). So, were you already planning on a switch to NHB and were you training that style for a while?
White: No, but some of the other guys were doing it, so I had to learn how. I had to learn how to not slap people anymore. And callusing my shins to hit people, ‘cause we were going bone to bone now- there were no more pads. So, that transition kind of sucked for a little while, because all the bruising- we had to let it callus. So, the transition was a little hard, but after transitioning- yeah, it was nice.
Colosimo: So it sounds like the Pancrase knee and shin guards actually did provide a lot of protection.
White: We kicked a lot harder with them on, because we knew we were protected. I remember one time I had to get a shot in my shin ‘cause the bruise on my shin was so big, it was swollen and filled with blood and water. But I still went out and fought, so…
Colosimo: Even though it’s not related to the general discussion, I gotta ask- in the months after leaving Pancrase, in April of ’97, you made an appearance in the WWF against Ken in an exhibition match, to help Ken get over as a new WWF talent (Editor’s Note: The “No Holds Barred Exhibition” took place on the April 7th, 1997 episode of the WWF’s RAW is WAR). What can you tell me about that pro-wrestling experience?
White: It was fun; we had worked out an ending so no one would get hurt. But, as you see, looking at it, Ken said I moved- I say Ken went too hard-
Colosimo: When he was down and you kicked him in the ribs?
White: No, when I got cut open.
Colosimo: Was this when he was mounted on you?
White: Yeah, I don’t know if you saw the edited version or the unedited version, but my forehead was cut open so wide that they actually took the camera away, because blood was squirting out to my feet when I was sitting on my butt.
Colosimo: Oh, I think that was edited out of what I’ve seen.
White: (Laughter) It was a good gusher that was going there. And I got like nine stitches in my forehead for that one.
Colosimo: But other than that, that shot where Ken thought you might have moved when you shouldn’t of, everything was basically what you guys planned out?
White: Right. And a lot of the guys there, they were afraid of Ken. They didn’t know if he was going to be stiff, so they wanted to see him in action with me- if he could control his anger issues. And he did.
Colosimo: Oh, so that was also part of the reason- to get the boys in the back to be a little more calm, and to feel safer with him.
White: Right. And from what I understand Paul Varelans was the first pick to do that with Ken, but Paul didn’t want to bleed. He was like “Nah, I don’t want to bleed.” So, Ken was like “Hey, this is coming down to it; do you want to do this with me?” I got paid five grand, and I got a RAW is WAR hat, and a RAW is WAR t-shirt.
Colosimo: (Laughter) I remember it was on the Monday night RAW is WAR. That’s funny.
White: Yeah. It was cool. To be on live TV, and Ken’s first match in the WWF when it was still WWF. So, that was part of history as well.
Part Three of Three: Gym Challenge Matches and Working in the WWF
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
William Colosimo: So now we’re talking UFC 1, 2, 3 era. In the gym, once Ken lost to Royce that first time, how obsessed was he with getting revenge on Royce, and was it affecting him as far as was Ken putting Pancrase fights almost secondary and was his whole reason for being to crush Royce eventually?
Vernon White: Yes. We actually went to I believe it was Red Bluff or Redding, California. We were going to a gym out there, and these guys were judo and jiu-jitsu people- that’s all they did. And Ken was grabbing them by the gi and throwing them- but he was also learning. He gave these guys videos, and had them watch Royce, and then had them try to do what Royce was going to do, it was just… he was obsessed beyond all belief. Like, you just mention Royce and you could see the blood pressure rising. I remember mentioning something, and the look on his face was like he wanted to take me in the ring and beat me up. He almost thought that I was questioning how tough he was. And I learned not to say certain things around Ken anymore. I even learned to not wear certain clothes around Ken, because he would get upset about that too.
Colosimo: Ken’s mentioned a couple things that bother him over the years about that Royce loss. But back then, do you remember what his main argument or main gripe was against Royce?
White: Yes. That he couldn’t wear his shoes, but Royce got to wear a gi. That was his main concern. Because it was a weapon. Royce could reach around and grab his gi and hang on to Ken’s back, and Ken couldn’t get out. Because it’s causing friction. And also from what I understand they told Ken right before the fight that he couldn’t wear his shoes, but they’re allowing Royce to wear a gi- so, if you want someone to have an even fight, then why are you giving one person a weapon and then taking something that could possibly be considered a weapon from someone else?
Colosimo: Absolutely. That’s the same reason he gives now, I was just curious if it was what he was saying years ago. Guy Mezger was in the stands at UFC 3, and he met Ken and Bob there. After UFC 3 Guy came to the Lion’s Den for his tryout, and I understand for his tryout he had to fight you for part of the initiation. Can you tell me about that fight with Guy?
White: He was tough. He was heavier than me. He had good balance. I had some fights in Pancrase, but it was just one of those things. He had a little more experience fighting than I did. I did what I could. I caught him in some submission holds, he mostly would punch me in the shoulders (laughter), so I couldn’t put my hands up, and at the end of it I went to go drink some water and when I lifted the bottle up it hit me in the face. I was tough, and I didn’t realize how much punishment getting hit in the shoulders was actually doing to me, and I started doing that to people because Guy did it to me.
Colosimo: Very interesting.
White: Yeah, like I said Guy had some techniques. We were both stand-up. I believe he had some judo as well. The only ground technique that I had was from the Lion’s Den (Editor’s Note: Guy informed me that by the time of his Lion’s Den tryout he had a first degree black belt in judo. He was also a high school and college wrestler).
Colosimo: Scott told me something interesting a while ago, he said that you for whatever reason had challenge matches in the gym, fights with UFC 1 vet Zane Frazier and UFC 3 vet Roland Payne. Did these fights happen? And why?
White: Yes, because Ken… Ken wanted me to test myself. Zane Frazier-
Colosimo: He wanted to join the Den or something?
White: He wanted to train for some fights, yeah. But I don’t think he was ready for our regimen, for everything that we were going to be doing. During that time, he eye gouged me- which pissed me off- and he said “No, I’m done.” He actually quit during the tryout.
Colosimo: And then Roland Payne- he was that Thai boxer with wrestling, he fought Harold Howard in UFC 3- what was the story with him? When did you fight him?
White: I don’t remember the time, I don’t remember much about it, either. Ken would have me fight whoever. I think he basically was testing these people against me, against my fighting spirit. And to get their fighting spirit. Because he knew that I wasn’t afraid of anyone. After being punched by him, I mean, I wasn’t worried about getting hit by anybody else, and I would go in balls out.
Colosimo: Do you remember fighting any other known non Lion’s Den fighters like those, in gym challenge matches? Any other names we might know?
White: No, not in gym challenges, no.
Colosimo: The sixteen-man KOP tournament- that took place December 16th and 17th of ’94- how did the team train for this one, and what was the mentality going in? You, Ken, Jason, and Frank were all in the tournament, there was a chance you guys might have had to fight.
White: Right. Ken made us work on our weaknesses, not our strengths. Because he knew that we would be okay in our strengths. He knew at any time that somebody could get hurt, so we had to be ready. So he would make us do ten minute rounds, with a new guy every one minute. And everybody had to do it, there was no “Oh, I’m tired, I can’t help”- no, we all went through it. Ken helped, Frank helped, he (Ken) did his rounds, and he would always make me go last- always. And I think that’s probably why my stamina was really good. No one got to sit out- even if you were hurt- you get in and you do the best that you can do to help out your teammate.
Colosimo: You guys trained pretty brutally, and you fought regularly- there had to be a lot of injuries. At what point would Ken let you reasonably sit out for a while? I know Sean got injured with his neck, he was there for a number of weeks and he wasn’t able to do anything and had to go home. How injured would he let you get before he would say “Okay, take some time off”?
White: I’m glad he let Sean take some time off because he broke my rib, told me it wasn’t broken, I went to the chiropractor, the chiropractor said “Oh no, it’s not broke.” I’m like “Look. I’ve never had a broken bone before- but this is broken.”
Colosimo: That was Ken or Sean that broke it?
White: Ken broke it. I think he was training for his fight with Lobman. And, he just punched me in the rib so hard that I felt my rib separate. It felt like… you know how when you take a rib and you pop it? That’s what it felt like, except for I was in pain- I wasn’t getting to eat (laughter).
Colosimo: And you think that might have been for his kickboxing fight with Frank Lobman?
White: That was for his fight with Frank Lobman, yeah. Because he was thinking about being able to get in close and punch him in the ribs. And he was headhunting me to get my hands up, he got my hands up, “boom”- the rib went- and I got a little bit of time off. And I had a fight coming up. He had gave me some supplements to help me heal faster- it worked- and then I went and I fought (Editor’s Note: Vernon’s first fight after Ken’s kickboxing venture was versus Remco Pardoel, on the July 6th, 1994 Pancrase card). So I’m glad that Sean got that time off, he wouldn’t give me time off like that. I had to spend three weeks to not get punched- but I still had to teach classes, I had to roll a little bit. I had some bandages around my rib cage, and I was out there rolling with people.
Colosimo: So, still on the KOP tournament, what are your thoughts on your first round win versus Leon Van Dijk? What do you remember about that?
White: I remember being happy, because he was one of Bas’s guys, and Bas is known for training with tough people. I knew he was all stand-up, so I knew if I could get him to the ground and throw him in a heel hook that I’d win. And I did.
Colosimo: Your second round match, that was a rematch with Masakatsu Funaki, and I think the main event of that show. What are your memories of that fight?
White: I believe that was when he hit me with a knee and knocked me out.
Colosimo: That was your first Funaki fight, March ’94, knee to the body KO (knock out).
White: Was that? Okay. That one, I remember that one (mutual laughter). The only reason I remember that one was because- that knee to the body- I had never been hit by anybody that hard, ever. And I thought to myself “I will never go down to another body shot like that again. Ever.” (Editor’s Note: Vernon fought Mr. Funaki three times)
Colosimo: If you take Bas out of the equation, I’ve heard that Funaki was pretty much the most devastating striker there. Did you see it like that?
White: When he put his mind to it- yeah. When I watched him go against some guys that had really good striking, he was more towards taking them down and getting them on the mat. But yeah, I’d have to say that Funaki was a very devastating striker.
Colosimo: In December of ’95 two Lion’s Den members finally did fight on an event when you fought Frank. Why was that fight made?
White: I think it’s because Ken wanted it.
Colosimo: He requested it?
White: I think so. And me and Frank were buttin’ heads a little bit, so Ken was like “Well, this is bound to happen- so let’s do it.”
Colosimo: He got out of Folsom (State Prison) and went right to the Den. Sean had mentioned Frank’s attitude back then, he was kind of a scary guy to be around- I’m starting to wonder if he was ever able to adjust to being outside.
White: Well he was always a manipulator. And I grew up around guys like that, I wasn’t scared of Frank. My mom had spent some time in prison, and when she got out, that’s all she ever hung out with after that was dudes that were in prison. So, that lifestyle- I even work at a prison now- none of them scare me, and they can’t figure out why. It’s like “Because I grew up around idiots like you.”
Colosimo: Very interesting. Now in July of ’96 you were able to beat Suzuki in your rematch. What did that win mean to you?
White: It meant a lot (laughter), because Suzuki beat me after two minutes and thirty-eight seconds in our first match. And I had watched him have a match with Guy, and Guy hurt him bad with body shots. I remember Guy telling me “Aim for the scar! Aim for the scar!” and I’m like “Okay!” I’m in there, just doing spinning kicks and trying to hit Suzuki. Finally, I had started getting some really good shots in, and I’m pretty sure that those shots to the body made it so he wasn’t that… normally his stamina was awesome, but he got tired during that match. I’m targeting his body as much as I possibly could because I wanted that win so bad. And I got it.
Colosimo: The scar that Guy was telling you to aim for- did he have some kind of recent surgery?
White: I believe it was his sternum that he had surgery on, because of Guy.
Colosimo: Yeah, Guy had two pretty brutal fights with him. But anyway, you followed that Suzuki win with another win, against Yoshiki Takahashi, September of ’96, on the Pancrase third anniversary event. You beat Takahashi prior to this, and in this one he was taking a lot of shots on the feet but he seemed to insist on fighting on the feet, and refused to do his takedowns. Do you think he was trying to prove a point with you?
White: Um, I was just hoping I knocked him silly, but that’s a possibility.
Colosimo: I didn’t know if he was so much of a wild man that he was being stubborn, or what. But you obviously did knock him silly.
White: (Laughter) I would like to say that I hit him so hard that he couldn’t find a shot, you know? Or he couldn’t find his spacing to take any shots. Or, maybe he did feel like he could weather the storm and then come in and knock me out. ‘Cause he threw a lot of head shots in that fight, I remember that fight too.
Colosimo: Did you ever hang out with him much, maybe any partying in Roppongi (Editor’s Note: Roppongi is a district in Tokyo, Japan known for its foreigner friendly nightlife)? Or any training in the gym?
White: You know, Takahashi, he didn’t hang out with us foreigners that much.
Colosimo: I don’t get the impression a lot of the Japanese did. Or did they?
White: Well, they would take us out. One of the guys, I believe he owned two Korean barbecues, and he would take us to those Korean barbecues and hang out with us. So there was a couple times that he was doing that. But for the most part, we fended for ourselves. There was a bar called Gas Panic, and we used to go to Gas Panic a lot.
Colosimo: You beat Suzuki, you beat Takahashi, and then the following month in October of ’96 you fought Osami Shibuya- that was a loss, and that was your last fight for the organization. So, was your exit from the organization collateral damage from the issues Ken was having with Pancrase at the time?
White: I don’t know. If it was, it was. My life didn’t end with that fight, it actually helped me because I had come into MMA and I was winning. So…
Colosimo: How do you remember that going down? Finding out you’re not going back anymore?
White: I was a little upset, because I liked it, and I actually had a girlfriend over there. So I used to love seeing her, and then it kind of ruined that. Then, something had happened with Ken, and they started bringing me over to PRIDE (KRS [Kakutougi Revolutionary Spirits]-PRIDE). So, that was kind of nice- to go back for PRIDE.
Colosimo: Literally the next month after that Shibuya fight, you had jumped into NHB. You had a good showing- that was the WVC show, I believe (Editor’s Note: The World Vale Tudo Championship 2, held on November 10th, 1996- where Vernon lost to Pedro Rizzo in the finals of the 8-man tournament). So, were you already planning on a switch to NHB and were you training that style for a while?
White: No, but some of the other guys were doing it, so I had to learn how. I had to learn how to not slap people anymore. And callusing my shins to hit people, ‘cause we were going bone to bone now- there were no more pads. So, that transition kind of sucked for a little while, because all the bruising- we had to let it callus. So, the transition was a little hard, but after transitioning- yeah, it was nice.
Colosimo: So it sounds like the Pancrase knee and shin guards actually did provide a lot of protection.
White: We kicked a lot harder with them on, because we knew we were protected. I remember one time I had to get a shot in my shin ‘cause the bruise on my shin was so big, it was swollen and filled with blood and water. But I still went out and fought, so…
Colosimo: Even though it’s not related to the general discussion, I gotta ask- in the months after leaving Pancrase, in April of ’97, you made an appearance in the WWF against Ken in an exhibition match, to help Ken get over as a new WWF talent (Editor’s Note: The “No Holds Barred Exhibition” took place on the April 7th, 1997 episode of the WWF’s RAW is WAR). What can you tell me about that pro-wrestling experience?
White: It was fun; we had worked out an ending so no one would get hurt. But, as you see, looking at it, Ken said I moved- I say Ken went too hard-
Colosimo: When he was down and you kicked him in the ribs?
White: No, when I got cut open.
Colosimo: Was this when he was mounted on you?
White: Yeah, I don’t know if you saw the edited version or the unedited version, but my forehead was cut open so wide that they actually took the camera away, because blood was squirting out to my feet when I was sitting on my butt.
Colosimo: Oh, I think that was edited out of what I’ve seen.
White: (Laughter) It was a good gusher that was going there. And I got like nine stitches in my forehead for that one.
Colosimo: But other than that, that shot where Ken thought you might have moved when you shouldn’t of, everything was basically what you guys planned out?
White: Right. And a lot of the guys there, they were afraid of Ken. They didn’t know if he was going to be stiff, so they wanted to see him in action with me- if he could control his anger issues. And he did.
Colosimo: Oh, so that was also part of the reason- to get the boys in the back to be a little more calm, and to feel safer with him.
White: Right. And from what I understand Paul Varelans was the first pick to do that with Ken, but Paul didn’t want to bleed. He was like “Nah, I don’t want to bleed.” So, Ken was like “Hey, this is coming down to it; do you want to do this with me?” I got paid five grand, and I got a RAW is WAR hat, and a RAW is WAR t-shirt.
Colosimo: (Laughter) I remember it was on the Monday night RAW is WAR. That’s funny.
White: Yeah. It was cool. To be on live TV, and Ken’s first match in the WWF when it was still WWF. So, that was part of history as well.
