@Robbie Hart
@Vicious Hellbows I hope you guys can add your perspective to this glorious thread.What do Mike Tyson, GSP, Shogun, Aldo, Cain, and dozens of other all time greats have in common?
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@Robbie Hart
@Vicious Hellbows I hope you guys can add your perspective to this glorious thread.
Objectively speaking, fedor is/was a phenom;
This fight was a classic alongside getting slammed on his head and nearly getting paralysed by randleman:
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LBD0qLUlo0c
Jones is today's phenom, I don't like him personally but know that he is an unbelievably talented, (haven't seen the best of him yet IMO) monster who will become the greatest of all time after he dismantles everyone and retires undefeated.........that's me 2 cents/pence
This fight was a classic alongside getting slammed on his head and nearly getting paralysed by randleman:
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LBD0qLUlo0c
Jones is today's phenom, I don't like him personally but know that he is an unbelievably talented, (haven't seen the best of him yet IMO) monster who will become the greatest of all time after he dismantles everyone and retires undefeated.........that's me 2 cents/pence
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so we should discredit their opinions because of yours?
No offense but that is the logic you're asking us to use here, or is it?
@Priziesthorse lmfao. I almost fell off my chair.I've already said I feel you older fans view Fedor through nostalgic tints.
If he were to come back now in his prime he would probably fight at 205 and he wouldn't be a top 5 fighter.
He was well rounded for his time but compared to modern day fighters he's not.
He barely threw kicks or elbows. He threw those crazy casting looping hooks from weird angles. Great grappler though
I feel as if fans got lost in his mystique and overrated him. He reminds me of Rousey in a few ways.
Top 10 fighter for now but not the GOAT imo
This applies to smaller fighters. Fedor is a HW (although a undersized one) who would lose to a few 205ers. At least Jones, Cormier and Rumble. Therefore he can't be the GOAT. Maybe the best fighter of his era. But not GOAT
You're an enlightened young man.
From an absolute point of view, without question.
Many have pointed to the p4p argument for deciding a GOAT at this point.
If that were it, it's always a lighter fighter from my literal understanding of p4p.
By lighter I don't mean Anderson or Jones, but Aldo.
I look at the degree of difficulty in opponents at that time, as well as the time of preparation, rules, setting, etc.
I also view it like Diaz in regards to rules, judging, etc.
I think intangibles like size and weight, not cutting, other martial arts achievements help Fedor's argument.
Outside combat his strength of mind surpasses others, and that can't be overlooked, simply because that same mind was in the ring.
Jon Jones could come close, and is still the closest imo.
But the factors I've mentioned and the fact Fedor actually did it, opposed what others could do, are going to weigh in my mind.
Jon Jones is more dynamic, as well as geared toward game plans.
And that's the result of fighting for the atmosphere he does.
I've done this a thousand times, and posted all these links, and there is no orcus to debate, nor would I waste more time doing it.
I personally would rather have prime Fedor by my side in a fight than anyone else.
And in the entirety of the man, just can't seem to manage putting anyone else above him.
Many have pointed to the p4p argument for deciding a GOAT at this point.
If that were it, it's always a lighter fighter from my literal understanding of p4p.
By lighter I don't mean Anderson or Jones, but Aldo.
I look at the degree of difficulty in opponents at that time, as well as the time of preparation, rules, setting, etc.
I also view it like Diaz in regards to rules, judging, etc.
I think intangibles like size and weight, not cutting, other martial arts achievements help Fedor's argument.
Outside combat his strength of mind surpasses others, and that can't be overlooked, simply because that same mind was in the ring.
Jon Jones could come close, and is still the closest imo.
But the factors I've mentioned and the fact Fedor actually did it, opposed what others could do, are going to weigh in my mind.
Jon Jones is more dynamic, as well as geared toward game plans.
And that's the result of fighting for the atmosphere he does.
I've done this a thousand times, and posted all these links, and there is no orcus to debate, nor would I waste more time doing it.
I personally would rather have prime Fedor by my side in a fight than anyone else.
And in the entirety of the man, just can't seem to manage putting anyone else above him.
I should ban you for this post, PRIDE didn't allow elbows. I have now come to the conclusion you have watched a total of zero PRIDE events front to back, going forward when you speak of Fedor it is erroneous.
I've already said I feel you older fans view Fedor through nostalgic tints.
If he were to come back now in his prime he would probably fight at 205 and he wouldn't be a top 5 fighter.
He was well rounded for his time but compared to modern day fighters he's not.
He barely threw kicks or elbows. He threw those crazy casting looping hooks from weird angles. Great grappler though
I feel as if fans got lost in his mystique and overrated him. He reminds me of Rousey in a few ways.
Top 10 fighter for now but not the GOAT imo
Did PRIDE ban kicks too?I should ban you for this post, PRIDE didn't allow elbows. I have now come to the conclusion you have watched a total of zero PRIDE events front to back, going forward when you speak of Fedor it is erroneous.
You got me with the elbows though. I thought elbows were only banned on the ground. No I have never watched a full pride event from start to finish.
When PRIDE was at its peak I was like 9 lol. I have seen enough of Fedor though. I don't see anything special compared to fighters I see fighting today.
Fedor fans always get pissy with me. I was asked for my opinion and that is what I humbly put forth
I've already said I feel you older fans view Fedor through nostalgic tints.
If he were to come back now in his prime he would probably fight at 205 and he wouldn't be a top 5 fighter.
He was well rounded for his time but compared to modern day fighters he's not.
He barely threw kicks or elbows. He threw those crazy casting looping hooks from weird angles. Great grappler though
I feel as if fans got lost in his mystique and overrated him. He reminds me of Rousey in a few ways.
Top 10 fighter for now but not the GOAT imo
Did Fedor throw kicks? He destroyed people with them when he needed to.Did PRIDE ban kicks too?
You got me with the elbows though. I thought elbows were only banned on the ground. No I have never watched a full pride event from start to finish.
When PRIDE was at its peak I was like 9 lol. I have seen enough of Fedor though. I don't see anything special compared to fighters I see fighting today.
Fedor fans always get pissy with me. I was asked for my opinion and that is what I humbly put forth
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtWaNFpObw
ERRONEOUS!Did PRIDE ban kicks too?
You got me with the elbows though. I thought elbows were only banned on the ground. No I have never watched a full pride event from start to finish.
When PRIDE was at its peak I was like 9 lol. I have seen enough of Fedor though. I don't see anything special compared to fighters I see fighting today.
Fedor fans always get pissy with me. I was asked for my opinion and that is what I humbly put forth
In addition to being arguably the greatest P4P fighter ever, Fedor is one of those guys, like BJ Penn and Sakuraba, that you just get excited for when they fight. Undersized dudes that weren't afraid to scrap against bigger opponents. Fedor wasn't playing it safe and trying to win decisions during his most dominant run, which is something a lot of the other fighters mentioned in the P4P debate did once they became champions.
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Anderson said bj is the best. I'm going with that, cuz you know, he's been in there and knows stuff and stuff. Plus no one ever says stuff that isn't true.
But I'm still unsure because Conor just recently said he's the greatest of all time, and he's been in there too, but I think I'll still go with Anderson, because if you take Into account the landscape of mma when he said it, you just know what's up. Cuz that was then and this is now. And now won't be important until another 10 years or so.
But I'm still unsure because Conor just recently said he's the greatest of all time, and he's been in there too, but I think I'll still go with Anderson, because if you take Into account the landscape of mma when he said it, you just know what's up. Cuz that was then and this is now. And now won't be important until another 10 years or so.
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Stop derailing thread.
You're right. I just went and watched his fight with Fujita and he dropped him with a liver kick.
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I'm half serious, some devil's advocates...
Looking here at the work done by
@scm1 :
How All Time P4P ranking was changing historically (from 2009 to 2015) | The MMA Community Forum
2011
2015
What's the thought that as GSP and Anderson continued to win, and Fedor became stagnant (then lost a few) that his body of work, while remaining incredible at its peak, did not keep going long enough for all time best?
Were GSP and Anderson just gifted beyond all comers physically? GSP maybe, though he became one of the best MMA wrestlers with no wrestling background...so that's pure work and talent right? Were Thiago Alves and Matt Hughes that far less gifted physically than GSP?
Anderson hardly looked like a physical specimen. How does Anderson not meet the criteria for talent over genetic luck?
I get the argument. Who has learned the game the best? Who didn't rely on genetics to overcome their lack of fight talent? But I am not sure even with that criteria and things like the objective scoring above that Fedor gets to remain #1 unless we stop the clock circa 2010.
In my opinion, Jones definitely is not there yet. He's the best LHW ever. And if he goes to HW and still is able to put on the same performances, man, that's amazing. Jones reach advantage was cited as a knock against him. But can we really disregard that Jones has outwrestled wrestlers, has outstruck strikers, has re-imagined techniques to use in unique ways?
Looking here at the work done by
@scm1 :How All Time P4P ranking was changing historically (from 2009 to 2015) | The MMA Community Forum
2011
2015
What's the thought that as GSP and Anderson continued to win, and Fedor became stagnant (then lost a few) that his body of work, while remaining incredible at its peak, did not keep going long enough for all time best?
Were GSP and Anderson just gifted beyond all comers physically? GSP maybe, though he became one of the best MMA wrestlers with no wrestling background...so that's pure work and talent right? Were Thiago Alves and Matt Hughes that far less gifted physically than GSP?
Anderson hardly looked like a physical specimen. How does Anderson not meet the criteria for talent over genetic luck?
I get the argument. Who has learned the game the best? Who didn't rely on genetics to overcome their lack of fight talent? But I am not sure even with that criteria and things like the objective scoring above that Fedor gets to remain #1 unless we stop the clock circa 2010.
In my opinion, Jones definitely is not there yet. He's the best LHW ever. And if he goes to HW and still is able to put on the same performances, man, that's amazing. Jones reach advantage was cited as a knock against him. But can we really disregard that Jones has outwrestled wrestlers, has outstruck strikers, has re-imagined techniques to use in unique ways?
D
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BTW, here's a great stat in Fedor's favor:
From 2009 when Machida couldn't be hit:
Sunday, January 25, 2009
Fedor Emelianenko vs. Lyoto Machida
First things first: We're still looking for volunteers for the Reach Data Project. It takes very little time to participate and it would help us a great deal.
We have a few new things up today. The first is an updated report on Fedor, which now includes the bout against Andrei Arlovski. The other new material all relates to Lyoto Machida, including a career report, and reports on his fights against Sam Greco and Sam Hoger.
Most people wouldn't put Machida in the same league as Fedor (at least not yet), but there is something very important that ties the two together. To demostrate, let's play a little matching game.
One of the best ways to measure effective defense and dominance is to look at the number of strikes a fighter absorbs. Because of variable fight lengths, the easiest way to consistently calculate this is to figure the number of strikes absorbed divided by the number of minutes fought. That gives you the number of strikes absorbed per minute of fighting, which we abbreviate as SApM. Here are some SApM figures for the five current UFC champions:
Fighter A: 0.71 SApM
Fighter B: 1.01 SApM
Fighter C: 1.23 SApM
Fighter D: 1.39 SApM
Fighter E: 2.7 SApM
The fighters in question are (in alphabetical order): Rashad Evans, Frank Mir, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, and Georges St. Pierre. Can you guess which SApM number belongs to which fighter? The answers are pretty predictable:
Anderson Silva: 0.71 SApM
Georges St. Pierre: 1.01 SApM
BJ Penn: 1.23 SApM
Rashad Evans: 1.39 SApM
Frank Mir: 2.7 SApM
Let's wrap things up with two more fighters' numbers:
Fedor Emelianenko: 0.59 SApM
Lyoto Machida: 0.64 SApM
Both Fedor and Machida have proven harder to hit than all of the UFC's champions. And it's not like there is a shortage of data on any of these guys. These numbers are from their entire careers. Does it mean Fedor and Machida are better than the other fighters? Not necessarily...this is just one subset of their entire fighting profile. But it is interesting to note that Fedor and Machida come in #1 and #2 in terms of the hardest guys to hit in MMA history.
From 2009 when Machida couldn't be hit:
Sunday, January 25, 2009
Fedor Emelianenko vs. Lyoto Machida
First things first: We're still looking for volunteers for the Reach Data Project. It takes very little time to participate and it would help us a great deal.
We have a few new things up today. The first is an updated report on Fedor, which now includes the bout against Andrei Arlovski. The other new material all relates to Lyoto Machida, including a career report, and reports on his fights against Sam Greco and Sam Hoger.
Most people wouldn't put Machida in the same league as Fedor (at least not yet), but there is something very important that ties the two together. To demostrate, let's play a little matching game.
One of the best ways to measure effective defense and dominance is to look at the number of strikes a fighter absorbs. Because of variable fight lengths, the easiest way to consistently calculate this is to figure the number of strikes absorbed divided by the number of minutes fought. That gives you the number of strikes absorbed per minute of fighting, which we abbreviate as SApM. Here are some SApM figures for the five current UFC champions:
Fighter A: 0.71 SApM
Fighter B: 1.01 SApM
Fighter C: 1.23 SApM
Fighter D: 1.39 SApM
Fighter E: 2.7 SApM
The fighters in question are (in alphabetical order): Rashad Evans, Frank Mir, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, and Georges St. Pierre. Can you guess which SApM number belongs to which fighter? The answers are pretty predictable:
Anderson Silva: 0.71 SApM
Georges St. Pierre: 1.01 SApM
BJ Penn: 1.23 SApM
Rashad Evans: 1.39 SApM
Frank Mir: 2.7 SApM
Let's wrap things up with two more fighters' numbers:
Fedor Emelianenko: 0.59 SApM
Lyoto Machida: 0.64 SApM
Both Fedor and Machida have proven harder to hit than all of the UFC's champions. And it's not like there is a shortage of data on any of these guys. These numbers are from their entire careers. Does it mean Fedor and Machida are better than the other fighters? Not necessarily...this is just one subset of their entire fighting profile. But it is interesting to note that Fedor and Machida come in #1 and #2 in terms of the hardest guys to hit in MMA history.
This thread should be stickied. Fedor is and always will be the GOAT.
The fact that he is 5'10" destroying giants cements that.
Anderson? Nah. It does not need to be discussed.
Bones? You seen how big this guy is? He's right behind Fedor but we'll see how he does at HW.
The fact that he is 5'10" destroying giants cements that.
Anderson? Nah. It does not need to be discussed.
Bones? You seen how big this guy is? He's right behind Fedor but we'll see how he does at HW.
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This is a fair argument to a degree but if he came back in the form of his younger days, he'd have the benefits of the same improved training methods and highlights of fighters from the past. If there had been no Fedor then there are things fighters today would be lacking. Whether you admit it or not, fighters have learned from him.
I've already said I feel you older fans view Fedor through nostalgic tints.
If he were to come back now in his prime he would probably fight at 205 and he wouldn't be a top 5 fighter.
He was well rounded for his time but compared to modern day fighters he's not.
He barely threw kicks or elbows. He threw those crazy casting looping hooks from weird angles. Great grappler though
I feel as if fans got lost in his mystique and overrated him. He reminds me of Rousey in a few ways.
Top 10 fighter for now but not the GOAT imo
Anyhow, this is all subjunctive