Your Erstwhile Judges: Ellenberger vs Thompson (main event)

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

Glenn Trowbridge
Sal D'Amato
Marcos Rosales

Glenn Trowbridge (wrote a book on MMA judging, but has little or no legit grappling background, claims Shotokan karate black belt, "some" boxing, and "dabbled" in BJJ -- imo this guy is genuinely trying, but is a "dabbling" bullshitter):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z419JvOw-Q


Sal D'Amato (clearly a boxing judge, you can't find background info of any kind on him on the NSAC's site, or as far as I can tell any first person interviews at all):
sal d'amato - State of Nevada Search Results
Judge Sal D’Amato at the center of controversy once again
Mario Yamasaki disagrees with judges, asks NSAC for better training

Marcos Rosales (boxing judge, does he have any literacy in grappling or what it's like to actually grapple/fight whatsoever?):
The absolute worst, most disturbing, and unprofessionally dangerous terrible referee - Marcos Rosales • /r/MMA

Trowbridge is clearly the anchor of this team, having at least "dabbled" in some form of submission grappling -- which probably means not even a one-stripe white belt, and if he was a two-stripe white belt imo he would have said "I've trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" instead of "...dabbled in..." (he's obviously intentionally talking himself up, there, maximizing his accomplishments without, in his mind, lying).

Was just looking at vid of Ellenberger to review the Saff/Ellen match-up & saw their names pop up -- this was the team the NSAC assigned to the main event for UFC on Fox 18. It's kind of beyond amazing how broken that shit is, for that team to even be possibly assigned to an internationally broadcast main event.

 

[Left Hook Larry]

Yep Barnum and Bailey circus the NSAC runs

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

The infamous Adelaide Byrd. Do you think she's ever grappled for real a day in her entire life? I do not.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4LXIz6skdo

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

Your favorite ref/judge and mine, Cecil Peoples has a sweet website for his dojo. He even has "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" listed, although there aren't actually any BJJ classes on the schedule, though MMA classes are (how do you have MMA classes without a BJJ curriculum, WTF)? What he doesn't have, listed anywhere, is any wrestling classes.

You know who's not in any of his dojo's "MMA" or "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" photos? Cecil Peoples.

MMA : Mixed Martial Arts Instruction In Los Angeles At House of Champions

He does look pretty sweet in his McDojo gi, however.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZldS2NGR5w


Hey Cecil Peoples! Fuck you!

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

Here's a great one from Cecil Peoples, Jr., from 2012:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS6ArBlo8wo


Thanks FSAC.

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

Oh, Ceeeeecil...nyuck nyuck nyuck...look at the grouse!


View: http://rutube.ru/video/fa7889ddec33e942b943c3572959da18/

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

Then, of course, there's this epic Chael P. interview with "The Judging Genius" Douglas Crosby, another old, fat ingnorant boxing judge with a personality disorder. Where do they find them?! That's just how they roll. People see they rollin'. They hatin'.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJQwRJfd01w

 

[HEATH VON DOOM]

Then, of course, there's this epic Chael P. interview with "The Judging Genius" Douglas Crosby, another old, fat ingnorant boxing judge with a personality disorder. Where do they find them?! That's just how they roll. People see they rollin'. They hatin'.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJQwRJfd01w

the first interview between these two was pretty awesome, Chael keeps having him on and its not that great anymore

 

[Ghost Bro]

The infamous Adelaide Byrd. Do you think she's ever grappled for real a day in her entire life? I do not.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4LXIz6skdo

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

the first interview between these two was pretty awesome, Chael keeps having him on and its not that great anymore

Oh shit...was that not the one? I thought this was the one where he has some young hooker in the car with him or something. I listened to like 30 seconds, and thought this was the original. 30 secs is about all I can take of that guy.

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

According to mma junkie, the judges for Weidman vs Rockhold were Adalaide Byrd, Chris Lee and Marcos Rosales.

The former & latter are two of the notorious turds above. Chris Lee has a pretty good track record -- maybe he's trained? Hey, one out of three not being an absolute, clueless turd is a start....

 

[Wild]

The infamous Adelaide Byrd. Do you think she's ever grappled for real a day in her entire life? I do not.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4LXIz6skdo

It is truly amazing that this creature judges MMA events.

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

...and to this day. WTF.


This article seems to point to at least some kind of training schedule being in place, now, but to be honest I think it's bullshit, meaning I think you can jump the line & the training if you know the right person.

What it takes to become an MMA judge

In my case, when I started judging (I was asked by the promoter to do it, not the AC, and the AC just went along with the promoter's choices -- this was not in CA/NV/FL), and then licensing came afterward. Somebody (I don't remember who) gave me a copy of the judging criteria (the old criteria where the fight is separated into grappling/striking, formally), and I read it, but nobody made sure I read it, or tested me on it in any way. The AC tapped me later to attend a McCarthy-hosted seminar, but it never happened. Somebody cancelled, and I never had a second of formal training.

You can still see in the pvtimes article that the demands of experience on the part of an applying judging candidate seem to include some "combat sports" experience, the demands are minimal. They don't require expertise in a grappling AND striking art, just one of some kind or another. There are plenty of fighters, trainers and coaches either active or retired from MMA specifically that would be happy to judge -- probably almost ALL of the latter and almost ALL of the former who have the time and are not actively fighting.

It's probably kind of like making friends, the whole judging recruitment thing. If you just passively allow people to come to you, often if not usually the ones that step up strongly will have an agenda and it will be fucked up and probably a product of some kind of significant mental malfunction. The ACs should be actively recruiting judges from retired practitioners and accomplished trainers, instead of just fielding applicants -- that would potentially solve the whole judging problem in a matter of a few years.

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

IMO most retired fighters & trainers would judge for free, as long as they didn't have to pay travel expenses. It's beyond amazing that the judging body is so vastly incompetent, when you reflect on that.

 

[Zeph]

BJM has gone on record, on his podcast, saying that fighters have been the worst at learning how to judge fights, in his experience.

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

OTOH, you may not have experienced this, but the actual body of fighters includes many -- if not most -- who would rather not have BJM ref their fights. I'm not a fan of BJM as a ref, and would not want him reffing a fighter of mine unless the alternative was Rosales, or one of the shitheads above. I think this view of BJM changes with the guys who started post-TUF-noob-era. Fans have always loved and taken BJM's awesomeness for granted. FIghters and trainers have not...at all.

I think I would trust him to judge a fight before Byrd, etc., but he's not a judge. Watching/scoring as a judge isn't anything like watching as a fan, and being convinced you know who won.

This is a pet peeve of yours, on your side, just like mine is on mine. You can find random shit to convince yourself of anything, if you look hard and long enough. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this (the whole "you have to have experience to be an expert" thing). I think you want to say you don't have to have experience. I want to say that is straight up nonsensical.

Even with BJM, a large cachet of his rep and "aura" is built on his having been with Rorion at the beginning, and being a BJJ black himself (at least I believe he's a black, now).

 

[Zeph]

This is a pet peeve of yours, on your side, just like mine is on mine. You can find random shit to convince yourself of anything, if you look hard and long enough. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this (the whole "you have to have experience to be an expert" thing). I think you want to say you don't have to have experience. I want to say that is straight up nonsensical.

Not really a pet peeve, but I just don't agree that only fighters can be judges. Fighters disagree on who has won a fight all the time. Many of the current judges are incompetent though.

 

[canofsticks]

but the actual body of fighters includes many -- if not most -- who would rather not have BJM ref their fights.

There's like 500 fighters on the roster in the UFC alone - so you're saying that around 250 of them do not want Big John McCarthy as their ref? Can you link me to some articles or something where you're getting this data? This would be the first I'm hearing of a mass amount of fighters voicing their opinion against BJM.

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

There's like 500 fighters on the roster in the UFC alone - so you're saying that around 250 of them do not want Big John McCarthy as their ref? Can you link me to some articles or something where you're getting this data? This would be the first I'm hearing of a mass amount of fighters voicing their opinion against BJM.

Honest question: where are you coming from with this?

Why not blow your own mind, and just go to a gym in area (if there is one) that has bred at least one UFC fighter, find a few guys who have been in the game for 5 or more years (working with pro fighters, or fighting pro), and ask them if they have an opinion on BJM. Some will have none, but those that do have one will have reservations about him most of the time.

BJM IS NOT A GOOD REF. Mind blowing, isn't it. He thinks the ref's role is to control (i.e. "be the boss of") the action. He has always behaved that way. Other refs like Herb and Josh Rosenthal think that (their behavior shows that they think that) the ref's role is to stay out of the way of the action, while protecting each fighter. Controlling vs protecting. Those are, in a way, opposite premises.

This also goes to reemjob's arg. He appealed to BJM as an expert. BJM sucks as a ref -- he doesn't get the primary underpinning of reffing, imo. He is a control freak, based on how he refs, and behaves. BJM has no compunctions about his reffing determining the outcome of a fight. That's the opposite of a topnotch ref like Herb or Rosenthal. Yamasaki is a cut below them because he seems not to see/react as sharply, but he at least shares that conviction that he is there to allow the fighters to determine their own fate, not his reffing. BJM is not the worst, but he is far from one of the best, and if you go actually talk to fighters and trainers, when they're not speaking for a public audience, their comments will surprise you.

I would love to see Herb and BJM trade places, as far as influence over the reffing/judging institution. It's unlikely, though, because the same thing that makes Herb or Rosenthal great refs is a personality difference that makes either unlikely to give a shit about being influential within the institution. One of life's fucked up ironies.

(Uhhh, for legal purposes, it's probably wise to make clear that all of the above, and all of my comments on this thread, are matters of opinion, should not be mistaken for anything else, and are intended to be nothing more.)

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

Not really a pet peeve, but I just don't agree that only fighters can be judges. Fighters disagree on who has won a fight all the time. Many of the current judges are incompetent though.

Good examples of why experience (not fighting professionally, but at least in experiencing all of -- or as close to all of -- what fighters experience in the course of fighting) is indispensable comes up all the time in training. Why did Cecil Peoples believe "leg kicks don't win fights" back in the day? Because he'd never in his life felt a good one. The majority of people who have never been turtled, taking nearside uppercuts/hooks to the head from turtle control, or well-thrown knees to the body in that position, don't know how fucked up taking those shots actually is. People who have never felt it will tend to underestimate the damage those shots are doing, even when partially or wholly blocked, because unless the guy in turtle gets KO'ed there, the damage effects are partially hidden by the position itself.

One point: I think I've seen you (@reemjob -- can't find your pound symbol on my keyboard) claim damage is not part of scoring/judging (maybe I have that wrong and it wasn't you). That is just wrong, either way. Damage is explicitly part of the written criteria, in itself, as well as a measure of what constitutes "effective aggression." On that count, experience is what informs your ability to understand what is and isn't damaging, what is and isn't effective. You don't have to have felt those things in a fight, but you have to know what they actually feel like, regardless of whether the recipient of that scoring grimaces or whatever or not.

If you want to see how right I am, next time you train around a skilled fighter, put on a bodyshot shield and cover your head (cross-side) with a focus mitt, and ask him to give you shots to the head and hard knees to the body while you're turtled. It doesn't feel like you think it does, based on what you have seen of how the fighter on bottom reacts, even when covered through those thick assed pads -- even when it's a small guy, like 130 or even 120 lbs doing the striking. Without actually experiencing it for yourself, watching a shit ton of fights between skilled guys will probably actually promote exactly the wrong impression of what that actually feels like. What it looks like in a fight is not what it actually is, and experience will absolutely teach you that. "I watch a lot of fights" won't.

 

[Zeph]

Good examples of why experience (not fighting professionally, but at least in experiencing all of -- or as close to all of -- what fighters experience in the course of fighting) is indispensable comes up all the time in training. Why did Cecil Peoples believe "leg kicks don't win fights" back in the day? Because he'd never in his life felt a good one. The majority of people who have never been turtled, taking nearside uppercuts/hooks to the head from turtle control, or well-thrown knees to the body in that position, don't know how fucked up taking those shots actually is. People who have never felt it will tend to underestimate the damage those shots are doing, even when partially or wholly blocked, because unless the guy in turtle gets KO'ed there, the damage effects are partially hidden by the position itself.

One point: I think I've seen you (@reemjob -- can't find your pound symbol on my keyboard) claim damage is not part of scoring/judging (maybe I have that wrong and it wasn't you). That is just wrong, either way. Damage is explicitly part of the written criteria, in itself, as well as a measure of what constitutes "effective aggression." On that count, experience is what informs your ability to understand what is and isn't damaging, what is and isn't effective. You don't have to have felt those things in a fight, but you have to know what they actually feel like, regardless of whether the recipient of that scoring grimaces or whatever or not.

If you want to see how right I am, next time you train around a skilled fighter, put on a bodyshot shield and cover your head (cross-side) with a focus mitt, and ask him to give you shots to the head and hard knees to the body while you're turtled. It doesn't feel like you think it does, based on what you have seen of how the fighter on bottom reacts, even when covered through those thick assed pads -- even when it's a small guy, like 130 or even 120 lbs doing the striking. Without actually experiencing it for yourself, watching a shit ton of fights between skilled guys will probably actually promote exactly the wrong impression of what that actually feels like. What it looks like in a fight is not what it actually is, and experience will absolutely teach you that. "I watch a lot of fights" won't.

Ok, you're now putting words in my mouth that I have never said and have argued against. I'm not making an argument that Cecil Peoples is a good judge, ref, or anything, either, and pointing to him as evidence that only fighters can be a judge is a straw man at best.

The rest of your argument seems to be that someone has to have experienced taking a punch to evaluate how hard a punch is through eyesight. First, I would say that that experience is not exclusive to fighters, but anyone who has trained. Secondly, I would argue that there is two separate experiences you are conflating into one. The experience you seem fixated on is the actual experience of pain and how much something hurts, while that experience is useful, the experience I would suggest is more useful for a judge is the ability to recognize the involuntary body movements induced by pain.

 

[canofsticks]

Honest question: where are you coming from with this?

Why not blow your own mind, and just go to a gym in area (if there is one) that has bred at least one UFC fighter, find a few guys who have been in the game for 5 or more years (working with pro fighters, or fighting pro), and ask them if they have an opinion on BJM. Some will have none, but those that do have one will have reservations about him most of the time.

BJM IS NOT A GOOD REF. Mind blowing, isn't it. He thinks the ref's role is to control (i.e. "be the boss of") the action. He has always behaved that way. Other refs like Herb and Josh Rosenthal think that (their behavior shows that they think that) the ref's role is to stay out of the way of the action, while protecting each fighter. Controlling vs protecting. Those are, in a way, opposite premises.

This also goes to reemjob's arg. He appealed to BJM as an expert. BJM sucks as a ref -- he doesn't get the primary underpinning of reffing, imo. He is a control freak, based on how he refs, and behaves. BJM has no compunctions about his reffing determining the outcome of a fight. That's the opposite of a topnotch ref like Herb or Rosenthal. Yamasaki is a cut below them because he seems not to see/react as sharply, but he at least shares that conviction that he is there to allow the fighters to determine their own fate, not his reffing. BJM is not the worst, but he is far from one of the best, and if you go actually talk to fighters and trainers, when they're not speaking for a public audience, their comments will surprise you.

I would love to see Herb and BJM trade places, as far as influence over the reffing/judging institution. It's unlikely, though, because the same thing that makes Herb or Rosenthal great refs is a personality difference that makes either unlikely to give a shit about being influential within the institution. One of life's fucked up ironies.

(Uhhh, for legal purposes, it's probably wise to make clear that all of the above, and all of my comments on this thread, are matters of opinion, should not be mistaken for anything else, and are intended to be nothing more.)

Finding "a few guys" who have been in the game for longer than 5 years who don't like BJM is a farcry from the claim that possibly most of "the body of fighters" (all licensed fighters in the US? Any place BJM is licensed? Only fighters he's reffed?) don't like him as a ref.

I don't disagree that some fighters may not like his take-command style reffing...but I take umbrage with the quantitative claim that possibly 50% of [every single?] licensed fighters dont like him. There's no data out there for you to support that. You could very well even be right, but to throw it out there as as a quantitative truth without supporting data...it's just intellectually dishonest.

The rest, however, where you opine about his abilities as a ref, I respect as an opinion. I agree that Herb and Rosenthal are good. With Yamasaki just below them.

 

[Wild]

I think former fighters could become great judges...and should be the one's judging fights IF they could put any biases aside, and would be willing to take some training classes. Are there orgs that teach MMA judging?

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

Ok, you're now putting words in my mouth that I have never said and have argued against. I'm not making an argument that Cecil Peoples is a good judge, ref, or anything, either, and pointing to him as evidence that only fighters can be a judge is a straw man at best.

The rest of your argument seems to be that someone has to have experienced taking a punch to evaluate how hard a punch is through eyesight. First, I would say that that experience is not exclusive to fighters, but anyone who has trained. Secondly, I would argue that there is two separate experiences you are conflating into one. The experience you seem fixated on is the actual experience of pain and how much something hurts, while that experience is useful, the experience I would suggest is more useful for a judge is the ability to recognize the involuntary body movements induced by pain.

Jeez.... I can't tell if you're putting me on, with the words in your mouth bit (it would be pretty funny, and I did not see what you did there, if you are). My arg was that experience matters. The whole reason for bringing up Cecil Peoples is it seems reasonable to assume you DON'T think he's a good judge or ref (because it's hard to imagine anybody does). That's the point of bringing up an explanation (lack of experience) for why he's gone on the record with such absolute ridiculous cluelessness -- to give you an example of why someone you likely already see as a dumbass, holds dumbassed views, that would have been corrected had he just had the experience of actually being legkicked hard (having had experience).

Re the second part, we don't actually disagree that training (without competing -- I have not competed, other than in grappling) is probably sufficient. The problem is it has to be real training -- not McDojo shit, or training where you don't actually experience being struck and grappling in ALL the basic positions that come up in a fight. Someone who'd merely trained could have that experience. BUT, there has to be some way to qualify/quantify that, if setting a standard for being eligible to judge. As you can see above in Trowbridge's interview (and he's not one of the worst judges, but he does not understand the grappling aspect well), just having "dabbled" in BJJ is a pretty low fuckin bar. There has to be some kind of criteria for eligibility. It might as well include "people who have fought professionally." Sure, there are people who have fought that are either mentally deficient, or poorly trained, but it's a concrete starting point for at least one group of judges who would absolutely be, on average, better than what we have now.

@canofsticks Your passionate outrage deserves a passionate, outraged response. I do not have one. You picked out a weak (really more "ambivalent") spot in my posts on the internet! You can die a happy man, now, for your life is complete. (@reem cited McCarthy as an expert, I don't see BJM's statement -- or the attributed statement -- as being worth much, especially since he seems to misunderstand the proper role of himself in his own profession as referee -- please do nothing, though, just wait and twiddle your umbrage, and I will go conduct a survey and get back to you.)

 

[LurkenLikaGherkin]

I think former fighters could become great judges...and should be the one's judging fights IF they could put any biases aside, and would be willing to take some training classes. Are there orgs that teach MMA judging?

I think people would be shocked ("I think you would be surprised") if they knew how often in small regional shows "conflicts of interest" play out unproblematically (or, sometimes, problematically). It used to be that if you went on the road to fight a guy in his home town you might as well count on some of the judges being buddies of his, the promoter being a buddy of his, and the ref reffing in a way that would benefit the hometown guy (e.g. no stand-ups from inactive top position in guard, half-guard, etc.).

I've judged fights for guys I've had personal relationships with, meaning I knew them personally and either liked (usually liked) or disliked them, and so have many of the UFC judges (i.e. judges on the national/international circuit). IMO at the NSAC level, judges and refs shouldn't be in much contact with fighters beyond duty-specific stuff, but an event is like a circus show. People circulate, meet, and know each other. Cecil Peoples (speak of the Satan), used to go to weigh-ins all dressed up, milling around, looking like he was hoping someone would recognize and want to talk to him.

re training, BJM and somebody else used to (and probably still do) go around the country doing fee-required seminars for judges and refs. The way this is publicized, as far as justifying the hiring/training process for judges is, in my experience, boosheet. Someone was going to pay my way to go -- I don't remember if it was a promotion or the AC -- but they ended up not even having the MMA segment, for some reason. My buddy went, and it was all boxing. He wasted his day by going.