Batman vs Doom: most ridiculous

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Leigh

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Jan 26, 2015
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I'm not going to say that Batman's writing makes perfect sense, because it doesn't. But my god this Doom fanboyism over utter shit writing.

Doom killed a hungry male lion with his bare hands. He stole the Beyonder's power, a guy who overpowered Galactus. To put that into perspective, Galactus is omnipotent and omniscient and more powerful than skyfathers such as Odin. The Beyonder demonstrated feats such as teleportation, transmutation, matter creation and other omnipotent exercises effortlessly. Doom took that power with some sensors he happened to have in his armour. He couldn't even control the power but he managed to defeat a being that could. Makes perfect sense :/

Batman, on the other hand struggled with a leopard (still ridiculous) and need 10 years prep time and outside help to beat Superman, including nukes, kryptonite and a super suit, even when Supes was holding back the whole time.

Batman's feats are dumb but nowhere near as dumb as Doom's.

Ready for rebuttals.
 
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SNIDELY WHIPLASH

DOOGOODER!!!!!!
Feb 16, 2015
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Batman and Doom are comparable and are both overblown when it comes to cleverness and intelligence. They are both written in a way that fanboys can simultaneously make them real enough to struggle against villains/situations with no power yet be able to dominate guys who can destroy the planet. It's the ultimate fanboy writing. It's like ok 'Superman sits back 2 miles away and uses his hurricane breath to blow the Batmobile away....''....uh well, Batman is prepared for that because he knew that was going to happen and he shot spikes from the bottom of the Batmobile into the ground'. Somehow he's always prepared for a guy who has technology 1000 years beyond what we have on earth.

Then he's always able to deliver kryptonite into the equation because Superman is always dumb enough to meet him face to face, never uses his super speed, never reacts faster than an ordinary human, can never use his super hearing when people are shooting kryptonite arrows his way and somehow his super senses are disabled.

Doom is no different. He always has an answer to defeat being millions of years beyond his experience, yet can have trouble with day to day heros like Iron Man.

That kind of writing REALLY bothers me.
 

Leigh

Engineer
Pro Fighter
Jan 26, 2015
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Bane breaks Batman's back, Superman can't land a punch.
Well, Bane caught Batman off guard with meticulous planning. Destroyed Arkham and had Batman running around after all his enemies while he was sick.

Conversely, Batman had decades to plan for his fight for Supes. Bane wanted to hurt him, Superman didn't.

We've seen a random encounter with Supes and Bats:



 

SNIDELY WHIPLASH

DOOGOODER!!!!!!
Feb 16, 2015
1,643
2,186
Well, Bane caught Batman off guard with meticulous planning. Destroyed Arkham and had Batman running around after all his enemies while he was sick.

Conversely, Batman had decades to plan for his fight for Supes. Bane wanted to hurt him, Superman didn't.

We've seen a random encounter with Supes and Bats:



Still doesn't explain how Superman's powers just sporadically didn't work. He couldn't hear an arrow coming at him??? What is super hearing for? Where were his Super senses? Why stand right next to Batman and allow these things to happen? Dumb writing relies on Superman to be super-stupid and use none of his advantages. Never mind that at the most base level Kryptonian science is years beyond anything in the Batcave. It's fanboy writing.
 

Leigh

Engineer
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Jan 26, 2015
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Still doesn't explain how Superman's powers just sporadically didn't work. He couldn't hear an arrow coming at him??? What is super hearing for? Where were his Super senses? Why stand right next to Batman and allow these things to happen? Dumb writing relies on Superman to be super-stupid and use none of his advantages. Never mind that at the most base level Kryptonian science is years beyond anything in the Batcave. It's fanboy writing.
Agreed but I don't know if that's a Batman plot device or Frank Miller hating on Superman like usual. Superman fights like a dummy - he always has. Fly into space and use heat vision. He could beat everyone with this strategy. That's not a reflection on Batman though, any more than its a reflection on Lex Luthor or Parasite or Mogul etc.

At least Batman had a plan to attack him after he was weakened by the nuke and the sky was blackened to prevent sunlight and then distracted him while Green Arrow got him.
 
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SNIDELY WHIPLASH

DOOGOODER!!!!!!
Feb 16, 2015
1,643
2,186
Agreed but I don't know if that's a Batman plot device or Frank Miller hating on Superman like usual. Superman fights like a dummy - he always has. Fly into space and use heat vision. He could beat everyone with this strategy. That's not a reflection on Batman though, any more than its a reflection on Lex Luthor or Parasite or Mogul etc.

At least Batman had a plan to attack him after he was weakened by the nuke and the sky was blackened to prevent sunlight and then distracted him while Green Arrow got him.
The other villains you listed could require a hands on approach though, they are at least worthy opponents when it comes to power level. I just see no justification for trying to portray Batman in this real life type hero in one way, yet always able to invent tech that makes him a world beater. Maybe we should call the Penguin next time Batman threatens Superman.
 

Leigh

Engineer
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Jan 26, 2015
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The other villains you listed could require a hands on approach though, they are at least worthy opponents when it comes to power level. I just see no justification for trying to portray Batman in this real life type hero in one way, yet always able to invent tech that makes him a world beater. Maybe we should call the Penguin next time Batman threatens Superman.
I don't disagree. My claim is that Doom is even worse. Batman's biggest example of punching above his weight is taking 20 years to plan to beat superman, using nukes, a super suit, kryptonite and reliance on Supes taking it easy.

Doom stole the Beyonder's power with a sensor on his wrist. And he killed a lion with the Peoples' Elbow whilst naked.
 

SNIDELY WHIPLASH

DOOGOODER!!!!!!
Feb 16, 2015
1,643
2,186
I don't disagree. My claim is that Doom is even worse. Batman's biggest example of punching above his weight is taking 20 years to plan to beat superman, using nukes, a super suit, kryptonite and reliance on Supes taking it easy.

Doom stole the Beyonder's power with a sensor on his wrist. And he killed a lion with the Peoples' Elbow whilst naked.
100% agreed. What I don't understand about this type of writing is the absolute need to make these guys realistic yet cosmic level at the same time.
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
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In laying out my Batman feats argument, I would discount any encounters with Superman because Superman's character is what allows Batman to repeatedly steal on him. Just as Colossus rarely shows his full potential because he's a painter at heart, Clark just isn't built to go into near earth orbit and snipe people with laser eyes, no matter how angry he is. Other than as Superboy Prime, he's never been written as a sociopath.

Bob Sapp could crush a lot of heavyweights going by pure attributes, but training and character play just as much of a role in fights as attributes.

Batman has other more ridiculous feats for someone who is just human than defeating Superman. I will return in a bit to chronicle a few.
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
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So there are obvious things about Batman's abilities that stretch the bounds of what a peak human should be able to do. Rappelling through Gotham alone should have his arms so exhausted that he would barely be able to lift them to fight a single criminal. Being able to soundlessly disappear while a cop is lighting his cigarette over and over and over again also strains credulity. But these things, like Doom having sorcerous powers are things we can write off to comics being comics. Peak human in the DCU does not equal peak human in our world. As anyone who trains knows, it's very easy to blow your wad in a fight, so facing hundreds of ninjas or joker venom crazed civilians would be impossible for a normal human, but we forgive that in comics. There are some things Bats has done, however, that even defy comics logic, particularly in the past 30 years. These things are on par with anything ridiculous Doom ever did or attempted to do.

1) He fights two wolves off and murders one by twisting it until its spine snaps. Seriously, wut?


2) Dim Mak vs. The Mutant leader in Dark Knight Returns. Dim Mak is simply not real and doesn't work and yet is a major part of Bruce's arsenal in a lot of his fights through the years. We can put this one safely down to Writer induced stupidity though.

3) Coming back from the dead with the help of the flying squid monster because he's so awesome that he thought of using his family's genes and Bat markers to pull off the feat and defeat the anti-life equation. More WIS, but plausible because he's Batman.

3a) Clawing his way out of the grave because of course "Batman thinks of everything" in Grant Morrison's words. It was a difficult enough feat when Spider-Man managed it in Kraven's Last Hunt and he struggled to do it, but he's superpowered, so clawing through a casket and earth is somewhat plausible. Bats escaped a straightjacket and coffin without overusing his oxygen and climbed through 6 feet of dirt in Batman RIP. And this wasn't even the first time he's done such a thing. Ludicrous every time for a normal guy.



4) Effortlessly snatching, curling and chucking a barbell with close to 200 lbs of weight on it:


5) Leg pressing a train car



6) Resisting the pull of a jet turbine long enough to have a conversation and then escape



7) Rips apart a brick wall when he can't escape netting


8) Breaks apart a Damascus steel blade with his Batarangs. Anyone who knows anything about blades should know this would be impossible, but it's possibly excusable, because who knows what the Batarangs are made from though the amount of pressure he'd have to exert to snap the blade defies belief.




9) Evades a shark then breaks its back to kill it



10) Chokes out a tiger (the garrote technique seems to be a Batman favorite, clearly learned during his time in Sicily)



11) Kicks both opium and venom on separate occasions with no rehab or night sweats, just sheer force of will.

12) Roundhouse kicks a motorcycle in half



13) Surprises, and KOes Deathstroke with one kick.



14) Slows his bleeding through force of will using Sufi mystical powers. Wat

15) Routinely shakes off Joker venom, Poison Ivy's pheromones, Crane's fear gas, Mad Hatter's hats and various telepaths attempts at mind control using his willpower when he doesn't have an antidote handy.

16) Melts ice by mastering a form of meditation



17) Lands a kick on the Spectre



18) Withstands the vaccum of space and begs for more



19) Holds his own in combat against Karate Kid, even defeating him at one point, which is basically the equivalent of Black Panther kimuraing Silver Surfer.

20) Escapes Wonder Woman's magic lasso by taking off his cowl. Definite WIS.



21) And finally, goes toe to toe with Darkseid in a straight up fight in his "Hellbat" armor. See him land punches, not get crushed to death and use Bats to distract Darkseid here: Batman In Hellbat Armor VS Darkseid | Comicnewbies
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
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Plenty more feats to dissect/discuss here, which is where I got the pictures for most of this stuff: Batman Capability Website


In my view, Doom's had some silly feats, but Batman's are no less silly. I did explain my rationale for why I think Doom's absorption of Galactus' power was plausible, though kind of a cheat in our Facebook chat, which I'll post here just for the record.

Doom had 2 encounters with Galactican energy. Once when he successfully analyzed and stole Surfer's powers and another time when a Doombot did the same but was unable to contain it. From those encounters, Doom learned a great deal about harnessing the power cosmic. I surmise that his knowledge of sorcery and science both played a role in divining its use and containment.

In Secret Wars, Reed, I believe, says something to the effect of Battleworld having nearly anything you could want in terms of advanced tech. It's in SW 8, same issue where spidey finds the Symbiote. Other heroes had also gotten new clothes, but Spidey either picked the wrong machine or got a bad draw. Therefore it's conceivable Doom would have been able to assemble or "wish" for the appropriate mechanisms.

Further, in the FF arc Secret Wars III, Beyonder cops to the fact that he was manipulating events on Battleworld essentially because he was bored, so probability was shifted in favor of Doom's success. It was essentially revealed that Doom never actually stole the Beyonder's power though his theft of Galactus' power may have been impacted by Beyonder's probability nudges. So Doom had the knowledge from prior encounters but in essence the whole encounter was scripted by the Beyonder in favor of success. This means the Galactus power theft was legit but Doom can't really get credit for it.

Re: Doom stealing Silver Surfer's power:

You have to remember that at the time Doom absorbed his power, Surfer was operating with a diminished power set as he was bound to earth. Subsequent continuity confirms he was a weakened version of himself and not capable of many of the feats he may normally have been during his imprisonment on earth. Surfer has been depowered on a few other occasions though Doom set the precedent. In Dynamo City, for example, his powers were totally nullified, as they were on Sakaar in WWH. He doesn't exactly possess the power internally as much as he is a conduit for it flowing through him, which can be disrupted/redirected.

Back to Galactus:

Galactus is a force of nature, as has been well established, a universal constant in many dimensions, but (significantly) not all of them. When he faced the In-Betweener in the Negative Zone, he got sonned until they crossed into the positive matter universe. The Beyonder's battleworld was not a planet but in fact a pocket dimension where he controlled localized universal rules, which would include a limitation of Galactus' access to his power. Also, at the pivotal moment when Doom took his power, it was when Galactus was attempting to feed if memory serves which has been long established is the one moment when he's most vulnerable. So again, it's credible that Doom managed it, but not without massive reality distortions that he himself wasn't even aware of. While it was something he did, it was also not proof of his competence.

But to me, it's not Doom's success rate that makes him awesome. It's the brazenness of what he attempts and how.
 
P

Punch

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Who hasn't had an aerial fist fight with a homie and whip kicked a motorcycle in half, i mean come on! :D
 

RedDragonUK

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Apr 17, 2015
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I tend to agree with Leigh on this one, those Batman suggestions Diami posted aren't that ridiculous when you see a man pull a lorry with his testicles or a free diver hold their breath for 9 minutes or some of the worlds strongest man feats or Guinness world records. Doom on the other hand takes Justice League Batman and makes him look normal. Surviving Hell and the cosmic activities. The mere fact Doom is a gypsy traveller and not once have I seen him park a caravan somewhere he shouldn't or steal somebodies car tyres.
 

Leigh

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Jan 26, 2015
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Most of that stuff isn't THAT unbelievable. Pushing a rail car when its on wheels? Using pressure points and chi, when Doom straight up uses magic to swap minds?

Taking on wolves and tigers is obviously dumb but at least he had his batsuit and weapons.

How powerful is Karate Kid?

Kicking a motorbike in half is dumb.

None of that compares to Doom.