Batman vs Doom: most ridiculous

[Leigh]

Regarding stealing the power cosmic from Surfer and Galactus, I accept that they were severely weakened when he did it. It is still an omnipotent power that electronics wouldn't be able to process.

Electronics work on....wait for it....electricity. You can use some devices to convert different forms of energy into electricity, such as solar panels or generators. You can even use electricity to generate different types of energy, such as with motors, speakers and LEDs. But electronics use electricity and if he is somehow generating power cosmic, he'd be better off stealing electricity from a power plant. His electronics cannot process anything other than electricity.

You don't use electronics to control light, you use optics. You don't use electronics to control sound, you use acoustics.

 

[Punch]

Regarding stealing the power cosmic from Surfer and Galactus, I accept that they were severely weakened when he did it. It is still an omnipotent power that electronics wouldn't be able to process.

Electronics work on....wait for it....electricity. You can use some devices to convert different forms of energy into electricity, such as solar panels or generators. You can even use electricity to generate different types of energy, such as with motors, speakers and LEDs. But electronics use electricity and if he is somehow generating power cosmic, he'd be better off stealing electricity from a power plant. His electronics cannot process anything other than electricity.

You don't use electronics to control light, you use optics. You don't use electronics to control sound, you use acoustics.

Magic, yo.

 

[kneeblock]

Most of that stuff isn't THAT unbelievable. Pushing a rail car when its on wheels? Using pressure points and chi, when Doom straight up uses magic to swap minds?

Taking on wolves and tigers is obviously dumb but at least he had his batsuit and weapons.

How powerful is Karate Kid?

Kicking a motorbike in half is dumb.

None of that compares to Doom.

I say it compares to Doom because Doom's powerset is being a sorcerer and scientist. Batman's is just being a normal human. As permutations outward from that, they're pretty consistent.

Karate Kid is the greatest fighter in the DCU and he's has 11 centuries more worth of martial arts knowledge from throughout the galaxy that Batman could not ever have had access to. Batman struggled with The Sensei before outlasting him. Karate Kid is younger, faster and better at everything. He makes the Sensei look like Shannon Ritch.

 

[kneeblock]

Regarding stealing the power cosmic from Surfer and Galactus, I accept that they were severely weakened when he did it. It is still an omnipotent power that electronics wouldn't be able to process.

Electronics work on....wait for it....electricity. You can use some devices to convert different forms of energy into electricity, such as solar panels or generators. You can even use electricity to generate different types of energy, such as with motors, speakers and LEDs. But electronics use electricity and if he is somehow generating power cosmic, he'd be better off stealing electricity from a power plant. His electronics cannot process anything other than electricity.

You don't use electronics to control light, you use optics. You don't use electronics to control sound, you use acoustics.

Good points on real world physics, but in Beyonderville, I'm sure they had some mcguffin device that made Doom's conductivity of the power cosmic plausible through a weird photovoltaic magic/science Shooter doesn't GAF hybrid.

 

[Punch]

Good points on real world physics, but in Beyonderville, I'm sure they had some mcguffin device that made Doom's conductivity of the power cosmic plausible through a weird photovoltaic magic/science Shooter doesn't GAF hybrid.

Magic magic ninjas wuut

 

[Leigh]

You're holding them to different standards. You accept Doom's magic cos that's his character, yet reject Batman being awesome at martial arts, despite his character being awesome at martial arts.

You reject a martial arts master like Batman using pressure points and beating another non-powered martial artist, yet you accept Doom chucking around spells and sorcery. That's a double standard.

 

[Leigh]

In DKR, if Batman's super suit suddenly stole kryptonian power from Clark and allowed Batman to weild it, would that be tolerated at all? Batman using a sensor on his arm and suddenly flying around shooting heat vision? Of course not.

Yet he had decades to build his anti Superman suit. Doom stole Beyonder's power (exponentially more power) with an off the shelf Doom Armour. Probably picked it up from the dry cleaners that same morning.

 

[Leigh]

Good points on real world physics, but in Beyonderville, I'm sure they had some mcguffin device that made Doom's conductivity of the power cosmic plausible through a weird photovoltaic magic/science Shooter doesn't GAF hybrid.

That sounds reasonable :/

 

[kneeblock]

You're holding them to different standards. You accept Doom's magic cos that's his character, yet reject Batman being awesome at martial arts, despite his character being awesome at martial arts.

You reject a martial arts master like Batman using pressure points and beating another non-powered martial artist, yet you accept Doom chucking around spells and sorcery. That's a double standard.

I don't reject Bruce's martial arts mastery at all. I reject Dim Mak and all pressure point attacks as total bollocks. Most of his other straight up fights I can accept, but pressure point strikes have never been shown to be of any use in any real world scenario. But I said I could give that one to Bats due to assuming the writer just accepted conventional martial wisdom at the time and believing pressure point strikes could be real.

Doom's spells and sorcery are of course not real, but it's part of the fantastic element, for which there are accepted rules based on how magic is used in the Marvel Universe. Doom can't do anything with his magic (as we see he's been unable to resurrect his mother) and most of the rules of magic are well codified in the MU thanks to years of Dr. Strange comics.

Conversely, Batman has no fantastic element. He is a highly trained martial artist who should be able to do things an incredibly well trained martial artist can do. Because of his realism, we have to apply some real world rules to him, but because he's a comics character, I can accept that he can do flying jump kicks that knock down 5 men then flipping into a perfect somersault. What I don't accept is his roundhousing a motorcycle or ripping bricks from their moorings.

 

[kneeblock]

That sounds reasonable :/

 

[Leigh]

I rest my case

 

[kneeblock]

LOL, at least in that battle Doom had a cosmic cube.

So I just did a little research to inform the Doom debate In SW, it's not Doom's armor exactly that absorbs the power. He himself absorbs it using Klaw as a conduit:

More significantly, it's not Galactus' energy that he's absorbing, but the energy Galactus released in the destruction of the world during his feeding process. He's somehow manipulating the cosmic energy unleashed via the planet's destruction via these sonic lenses. The physics of it are obviously dubious, but the fact that he never actually saps Galan combined with what we know about Beyonder basically working the whole affair make it plausible in my view.

 

[Punch]

I don't reject Bruce's martial arts mastery at all. I reject Dim Mak and all pressure point attacks as total bollocks. Most of his other straight up fights I can accept, but pressure point strikes have never been shown to be of any use in any real world scenario. But I said I could give that one to Bats due to assuming the writer just accepted conventional martial wisdom at the time and believing pressure point strikes could be real.

Doom's spells and sorcery are of course not real, but it's part of the fantastic element, for which there are accepted rules based on how magic is used in the Marvel Universe. Doom can't do anything with his magic (as we see he's been unable to resurrect his mother) and most of the rules of magic are well codified in the MU thanks to years of Dr. Strange comics.

Conversely, Batman has no fantastic element. He is a highly trained martial artist who should be able to do things an incredibly well trained martial artist can do. Because of his realism, we have to apply some real world rules to him, but because he's a comics character, I can accept that he can do flying jump kicks that knock down 5 men then flipping into a perfect somersault. What I don't accept is his roundhousing a motorcycle or ripping bricks from their moorings.

I'd say Batman has the fantastic element of being a comic book character. Also, maybe the brick thing was just shoddy Gotham workmanship?

 

[Leigh]

LOL, at least in that battle Doom had a cosmic cube.

So I just did a little research to inform the Doom debate In SW, it's not Doom's armor exactly that absorbs the power. He himself absorbs it using Klaw as a conduit:

More significantly, it's not Galactus' energy that he's absorbing, but the energy Galactus released in the destruction of the world during his feeding process. He's somehow manipulating the cosmic energy unleashed via the planet's destruction via these sonic lenses. The physics of it are obviously dubious, but the fact that he never actually saps Galan combined with what we know about Beyonder basically working the whole affair make it plausible in my view.

Strawman. My main issue is taking the Beyonder's power

 

[kneeblock]

In every other iteration of this argument your gripe has been that it's ridiculous that Doom took Galactus' power. In this thread, you shifted the goalposts in the OP to arguing that it's ridiculous he took Beyonder's power, but the particular area we've been discussing is whether it makes sense that he hijacked Galactus' power.

The Beyonder situation is much easier to explain as Beyonder himself said in SW 2 and 3 that he jobbed the fight. In that regard, Doom was basically deluding himself into believing whatever gadget he had was absorbing Beyonder's power, but what was actually happening was Beyonder was more or less possessing him.

Another fun tidbit: Doom in SW wasn't Doom proper. Doom proper had actually died prior to SW in battle with Terrax so the Doom Beyonder snatched up was actually a future Doom who caused quite a bit of disruption to Marvel's timeline. What was really happening was arguing behind the scenes between John Byrne and Jim Shooter about the use of Doom.

So it begs the question of whether it was ever Doom or just an idea of Doom that Beyonder transferred his power to, but since that idea is unsupported by continuity I'll leave it as speculative.

Long story short: Doom stole cosmic power that would otherwise have been consumed by Galactus through Beyonder assisted means, but never actually stole Beyonder's power. So while he did theoretically accomplish one feat, he definitely didn't accomplish the other.

But again, my argument is that, like Bats, no matter how equally ludicrous their feats, what makes both characters awesome is the audacity of what they dare. Two traumatized kids with great wealth as adults who beat the odds to do what others can't or won't.

 

[Darqnezz]

Bane breaks Batman's back, Superman can't land a punch.

Because Superman is a Super Pussy. Bane didn't give a F.

 

[Darqnezz]

Still doesn't explain how Superman's powers just sporadically didn't work. He couldn't hear an arrow coming at him??? What is super hearing for? Where were his Super senses? Why stand right next to Batman and allow these things to happen? Dumb writing relies on Superman to be super-stupid and use none of his advantages. Never mind that at the most base level Kryptonian science is years beyond anything in the Batcave. It's fanboy writing.

There's a lot of dumb hickey stuff in superman

 

[Darqnezz]

1-2. Ninja
3. A chick did it in Kill Bill
8-17: Goddamn Ninja.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

Because Superman is a Super Pussy. Bane didn't give a F.

Is this your educated opinion or because Batman is a total badass cowboy vigilante?

LOL @ crying, whiny billionaire angst that gets beat up by the penguin but can't even be subdued by a demi-god because fanboy writing makes it like he's too scared to touch anything.

 

[Leigh]

In every other iteration of this argument your gripe has been that it's ridiculous that Doom took Galactus' power. In this thread, you shifted the goalposts in the OP to arguing that it's ridiculous he took Beyonder's power, but the particular area we've been discussing is whether it makes sense that he hijacked Galactus' power.

Uh, read my OP. I quite clearly lay it out.

"Doom killed a hungry male lion with his bare hands. He stole the Beyonder's power,a guy who overpowered Galactus."

SW 2 and 3 might have retconned the Beyonder to have practically given the power away but at the time SW came out, Doom was written to have stolen it with his armour, which was complete bollocks. And even if it was given to him, electronics can't contain random omnipotent energy, as explained.

Squirrel Girl defeating Doom is actually WAY more logical.

 

[Punch]

But again, my argument is that, like Bats, no matter how equally ludicrous their feats, what makes both characters awesome is the audacity of what they dare. Two traumatized kids with great wealth as adults who beat the odds to do what others can't or won't.

This is pretty awesome right here. I personally like both characters.

 

[Punch]

Squirrel Girl defeating Doom is actually WAY more logical.

Props for mentioning the Great Lakes Avenger Squirrel Girl. She has beaten some serious ass.

 

[RedDragonUK]

Also universes should be taken into account and versions of heroes due to timeline.

All star superman-all powerful
All star Batman -all arsehole

Golden age Superman- leaps not flies, not nearly as strong, developing powers
Golden age Batman- started with guns, bit of a dick, no bat cave or Alfred , purple gloves

616 Doom/Ultimate Doom/60's Doom etc

 

[Darqnezz]

Is this your educated opinion

Yes. If Superman had any backbone at all he would easily best Bats or anyone else. In the pic above he's essentially doing a 1 handed 200 quintillion ton press, & he gets beat up regularly. A quintillion is a cardinal number represented in the U.S. by 1 followed by 18 zeros. So that would be 200,000,000,000,000,000,000 Tons. He's a pussy. A REALLY strong one.

 

[kneeblock]

Is this your educated opinion or because Batman is a total badass cowboy vigilante?

LOL @ crying, whiny billionaire angst that gets beat up by the penguin but can't even be subdued by a demi-god because fanboy writing makes it like he's too scared to touch anything.

In fairness, whenever Supes has been mond controlled or out of his head, he's easily owned Batman and nearly murdered him and even Bats admitted he had no chance. Sane Clark vs. Bruce with prep time is a bit more competitive.

And anyway, the Injustice series running now is sort of the final word on the Bats/supes debate imo