Open the doors , they are coming

[Demonic Cruz]

The one thing that I think is hilarious about that JRE ep in particular is when Joe and Kirik and Chris act puzzled as to why there is so much vitriol and negativity on the ug. They are right to point out that its a problem on the internet with shit talking in general that seemingly gets worse and worse but come the fuck on, I would expect that to occur of all places on an mma forum. I lurked on Sherdog starting at around 2004 for years and never made an account and then probably 2009 I started lurking on the UG before making an account in 2011. None of my friends were into mma back then and even now only a few of them are but before I ever even had the idea to find an online mma forum to shoot the shit with other fans over, I figured there would be a bunch of people talking mad shit about virtually any and all topics. How did I know to expect this before I ever became involved with any online martial arts related forum and here you have some people so shocked/perplexed in 2015? Did it ever occur to some of you that when a fighter goes out into a cage and makes a bold statement like "I am going to impose my will on you with my fists" it incites that sort of reaction in people? I would just assume its the nature of mixed emotions you feel before/during/after a fight. I know squabbles happen at live events everywhere but isn't the MGM Grand notorious for having fights break out during UFC events? Why would an online mma forum be any different?

 

[Zeph]

My issue comes down to the whole 'fighterbashing' thing on mma.com. I'm assuming you guys likewise are adopting that rule but I'd make sure that you understand what it means in it's most fundamental sense because Kirik and co certainly dont. Its a noble and honorable rule to uphold but I feel due to interpretation and plain old human nature things can get complicated when it comes time to actually modulate. To be honest, I think the only things that should considered violations/offenses are the things pertaining to a fighter's personal lives that most would consider a 'low blow' or somehow detrimental. I'm not saying this because I think fighters need to be subject to shit talking but I do feel like if you dont enforce the rule in an absolute manner, its totally worthless and used at the discretion of one person or a group of person's opinion/tastes as a fan/fans.

Fighterbashing is fighterbashing regardless of how you feel about a particular fighter or that fighter's actions or comments. You've gotta be consistent, whatever the case when modding a forum like this. Check the UG right now and I guarantee you there are tons of threads bashing certain fighters where post after post is technically a violation. It doesn't matter if everyone agrees that Rampage acts like a baby or Conor is arrogant or the Diaz bros act like thugs if you are truly implementing the no fighterbashing rule.

Then there are a group of fighters who are deemed untouchable and the minute you say anything negative about them, you get suspended or banned. You can't base how you are going to implement a rule like that on the fighter's personality or how they act. Thats just asinine.There isn't a certain amount of silliness that Ronda can say where you go, 'ok well she went and said this ridiculous statement to mmaweekly and therefore we will allow people to ridicule her/talk shit on her in this thread on the matter this time.' I know that sounds dumb and would make any forum heavily censored but its the only way that rule should be used which is why I think it should be done away with. My favorite fighters (again barring deeply personal shit) I like to think anyways would be unphased by comments/criticisms made by keyboard warriors. This sport is after all all bout who and who aren't some of the baddest people on the earth are at the end of the day.

There is a difference between criticism and fighter bashing, and mainly it is in how you phrase the same argument. Fighterbashing could be to say, 'Conor is an arrogant dickhead.'. Whereas criticism could be to say, 'Conor is too arrogant and that reflects poorly on his character as a person.'. Both say essentially the same thing, but the former is fighter bashing, and the latter could be seen as valid criticism, which could be argued for or against.

 

[Zeph]

The one thing that I think is hilarious about that JRE ep in particular is when Joe and Kirik and Chris act puzzled as to why there is so much vitriol and negativity on the ug. They are right to point out that its a problem on the internet with shit talking in general that seemingly gets worse and worse but come the fuck on, I would expect that to occur of all places on an mma forum. I lurked on Sherdog starting at around 2004 for years and never made an account and then probably 2009 I started lurking on the UG before making an account in 2011. None of my friends were into mma back then and even now only a few of them are but before I ever even had the idea to find an online mma forum to shoot the shit with other fans over, I figured there would be a bunch of people talking mad shit about virtually any and all topics. How did I know to expect this before I ever became involved with any online martial arts related forum and here you have some people so shocked/perplexed in 2015? Did it ever occur to some of you that when a fighter goes out into a cage and makes a bold statement like "I am going to impose my will on you with my fists" it incites that sort of reaction in people? I would just assume its the nature of mixed emotions you feel before/during/after a fight. I know squabbles happen at live events everywhere but isn't the MGM Grand notorious for having fights break out during UFC events? Why would an online mma forum be any different?

Just because fights break out, doesn't mean we should make it legal to fight in the crowd. Hold yourself to a higher standard.

 

[Wild]

My issue comes down to the whole 'fighterbashing' thing on mma.com. I'm assuming you guys likewise are adopting that rule but I'd make sure that you understand what it means in it's most fundamental sense because Kirik and co certainly dont. Its a noble and honorable rule to uphold but I feel due to interpretation and plain old human nature things can get complicated when it comes time to actually modulate. To be honest, I think the only things that should considered violations/offenses are the things pertaining to a fighter's personal lives that most would consider a 'low blow' or somehow detrimental. I'm not saying this because I think fighters need to be subject to shit talking but I do feel like if you dont enforce the rule in an absolute manner, its totally worthless and used at the discretion of one person or a group of person's opinion/tastes as a fan/fans.

Fighterbashing is fighterbashing regardless of how you feel about a particular fighter or that fighter's actions or comments. You've gotta be consistent, whatever the case when modding a forum like this. Check the UG right now and I guarantee you there are tons of threads bashing certain fighters where post after post is technically a violation. It doesn't matter if everyone agrees that Rampage acts like a baby or Conor is arrogant or the Diaz bros act like thugs if you are truly implementing the no fighterbashing rule.

Then there are a group of fighters who are deemed untouchable and the minute you say anything negative about them, you get suspended or banned. You can't base how you are going to implement a rule like that on the fighter's personality or how they act. Thats just asinine.There isn't a certain amount of silliness that Ronda can say where you go, 'ok well she went and said this ridiculous statement to mmaweekly and therefore we will allow people to ridicule her/talk shit on her in this thread on the matter this time.' I know that sounds dumb and would make any forum heavily censored but its the only way that rule should be used which is why I think it should be done away with. My favorite fighters (again barring deeply personal shit) I like to think anyways would be unphased by comments/criticisms made by keyboard warriors. This sport is after all all bout who and who aren't some of the baddest people on the earth are at the end of the day.

Check out our Community Standards thread pinned at the top of Cageside when you get time. We discuss what our core values are, including a detailed breakdown of what constitutes fighter bashing...and the penalty for doing do. It's one of my biggest pet peeves and simply won't fly here.

Fair criticism is absolutely fine.

Once the core values and standards are established (which occurred here collectively as a community), then it comes down to consistent moderating...which we plan to accomplish. It may anger some, or lower traffic, but the alternative is being like every other forum out there...just with better technology.

 

[ChaosOverkill]

but how do you know they will troll over here? maybe that will be their playground. If they troll here, ban them, but to keep them from signing up just seems a little childish-you can't play with my ball sort of thing. Censoring who can join just seems against the spirit of the board.

Yeah fair enough, my "Keep them away" is under the already proven assumption that they will hang themselves immediately.

Wisdom100 AKA RalphHarris AKA LegendsOfThePast, came here fresh off being banned over there, he lasted one series of posts after claiming to "Want a new start" a basically just tried to screw over @Galanis for money.

All he did on the UG, was spam post topics about a particular fighter, over and over and over and over. Nothing news worthy just usually memes or some half-baked "The shadow of the eagle of Jones is coming to jizz all over the division" or something like it, basically only serving as pointless inflammatory bait and pushing the collective threads of members interested in actual news and discussion off the first page.

As long as people aren't bleeding hearts for some comedic value of people like him you can give them a chance but I am a hanging judge for his type of troll and the dozens like him. They have no interest in this place, they have interest in absorbing lols or reporting them back to their gang of fellow chan trolls for some sort of kudos in disruption culture.

Like I said, satire is one thing and identifiable. Bait and spam is entirely another, in my experience these trolls are trolls anywhere. They are not the ones that are a product of the UG, they saw a forum with a large, serious user base and UG mods being too few and inadequate besides a couple too busy to manage the tsunami of them that came.

Fighter bashing is easy to stop, it's an easy red flag. Chameleon trolls will play you and under the guise of change I would expect any dedicated Zuffa Shills that tow only one version of reality to do that and slowly turn into what they were over there given a chance here. It is not the UG that gave them their mandate or personal mission to excuse any decision Zuffa makes no matter the problems. People with a mandate to disrupt, have no interest in the point of a forum, I've never seen a troll reform over at the UG, not once.

By all means, give them a chance, but people cannot then bitch that the modding here is too harsh when the plug is pulled in completely opposite philosophy here, because they'll get one chance before @I Wild Each It or any of the dedicated to change mods here shuffle them off.

We don't have any members yet who were notorious trolls over there and change their ways here yet. We've had people who WEREN'T trolls over there like Malvert for the most part, come here and declare they were going to "Troll the shit" out of this place, and a major bait troll see this is more easy prey.

So we shall see, I predict now we'll see the trolls who are trolls through and through try, certain names I wouldn't give the time of day to if they use familiar names. That's just me.

 

[Darqnezz]

Who knew there were so many of you bastards?

 

[GJdeux]

@ChaosOverkill I like the "harsh" modding here and I report posts that go across the line, imo. If someone is here for the lulz, then they can be banned. I have no problem with that. They will show their true colors rather quickly I"m sure, so won't be a big waste of time. As long as we all are vigilant I think we will be alright.

 

[ChaosOverkill]

@ChaosOverkill I like the "harsh" modding here and I report posts that go across the line, imo. If someone is here for the lulz, then they can be banned. I have no problem with that. They will show their true colors rather quickly I"m sure, so won't be a big waste of time. As long as we all are vigilant I think we will be alright.

It has to be, for the mere fact there there is such thing as professional and amateur trolls and IP banning is not longer a thing.

A forum never wants to be overrun by trolls, the problem is that you start by sticking to a policy until the professionals comeback over and over and over and over and what happened over at the UG is they got overloaded and gave up because it was putting tape on a busting dam.

At that point you have two choices, make so many people mods (Sherdog) that they run completely out of control with subjective modding and the reverse problem happens or you just let be what will be and here we are as a result. The only people I care about having a policy beforehand on are the identifiable trolls that live over there that will smell blood and you cannot IP ban. There's Thiaguy obviously who is some brand of autistic spazz troll that derails threads either because of or under some guise of a borderline sexual obsession over certain fighters. There's a gender troll that moved mostly to the OG but would post only Ronda and Fallon Fox articles that had inflammatory controversial topics and spammed them to get anger and then engage in cliché'd PC shaming arguments for lol, and then there's fighter bashing and shill trolls that are essentially varieties of Cindy O.

Those are the basic premise of why this site exists. Their missions and internet jollies are why that place fell apart. No I am not for censorship, but on the other hand letting them smell blood from poking a stick at us is not necessarily better to me either. Cindy will never be welcome here for obvious reasons, my personal list contains about 5 professional troll/shills and if you show them any window leniency they will bombard this place for no other reason than because they can and it's fun to them,

So it's not as cut and dry as just let it be and react because under that guise if Cindy wanted to we should let her have a chance too, and in no way in hell is that ever going to happen so to me she ain't the only one, but it's also a very short list apart from her I even care about and I don't think it is unreasonable to have a policy for the people that MOST made the UG a giant exercise in giving up on modding.

So I agree in theory, let them hang themselves but you can't let each case turn into an issue people debate as every forum underestimates professional troll dedication in my experience until they have broken your will to care or until you have ruined your own forum overreacting to it. I don't have all the answers either, but I do know in 2015 without IP banning we have to adapt and we have the benefit of source of community problem, obviously there is no way to stop a troll from coming here at least once before you can spot them, but once you identify the style and most likely the professional at work, you can either put them on the ban on site list or play democracy with their content and slowly chip away at what you have built IMO. You cannot have people flip flopping over whether it's worth keeping an eye on or whether it's funny or not, you either make their time here as short as possible in each iteration or you've invited the vermin to stay.

 

[ShatsBassoon]

Is the tmmac going to pull the rug out from underneath me?


Don't see why, I never post ajything controversial. I am vanilla as far as that's concerned.

 

[Wild]

Our commitment to the community is to rid the site of people that are only here to troll, shill, and sabotage. The commitment that we need from the community is, to support our efforts. Use the report button, send us PM's, hit us up in chat, don't publicly question why someone was banned or campaign for someone to be unbanned, etc.

We've only had to ban about 4-5 people since January 1st, and I think most here would agree those people earned it. Although I must admit, one was a misunderstanding, and we spoke to that person offline, apologized and reinstated them. We always try to talk things thru first, and not be quick to ban...so if someone gets the hammer, it's a last resort.

Trust me, we will not sell our integrity for traffic. This is a hobby for us, and I would rather have 2000 quality people posting without trolling, shilling, name calling, fighter bashing, and drama...versus 20k and our community be like every other one out there.

 

[WoodenPupa]

bviously there is no way to stop a troll from coming here at least once before you can spot them, but once you identify the style and most likely the professional at work, you can either put them on the ban on site list or play democracy with their content and slowly chip away at what you have built IMO.

The democracy route always works if the audience votes by giving the silent treatment. Trolls need responses like oxygen---take it away from them and they shrivel and die. A troll only needs a reactionary believer in the credo "The only thing evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing" to begin operating, and most people will gladly take up the superficially righteous cause to tell a troll, at length and repeatedly, what a troll he is, and thus give him an oxygen tank.

The silent treatment is the deadliest form of punishment in existence. After enough time in solitary speechless space, the survival rate drops to zero. Thiaguy and CindyO and every brand in between---you refuse to indulge them, they all respond the same, curled up in a corner and wheezing to live.

It follows suit that trolls live only where there are large populations, especially because in those pools people get the urge to morally grandstand. The troll responder is a latent troll who has no positive mission but comes to life when a troll drops on the scene. Forced to evaluate the two kinds of internet being, you're forced to grade the troll a little higher, and respect him a little more, even if he is still in the token category. But large populations---that's where trolls seek life. Somewhere in the cybercity there are wandering troll-responders, those who need trolls almost as bad as trolls need them.

I never met a troll who could live more than a few days without a vitriolic reaction. It's too bad that any forum has to resort to formal banning, since silence is ultimate vanguard. No argument about the practical side of things here---as you say, the trolls "slowly chip away" at what we have built---but I am pointing out the reason they are able to do this.

 

[WoodenPupa]

Trust me, we will not sell our integrity for traffic. This is a hobby for us, and I would rather have 2000 quality people posting without trolling, shilling, name calling, fighter bashing, and drama...versus 20k and our community be like every other one out there.

That is some fine music. FUCK the big mobs. Quality over quantity any day.

 

[ChaosOverkill]

don't publicly question why someone was banned or campaign for someone to be unbanned, etc.

This is the killer and in response to @WoodenPupa this is in the democratic route, if you cannot get silence, and often you can't on two levels, both in terms of responding to troll or questioning why mods banned a particular troll they might have found funny while they were doing something to someone they don't care is the target starts the larger problem. It is virtually impossible to control everyone's response to trolling on a board as it grows nor can you assure that they will all support your banning them, however best thing you can do is be consistent in the end intolerant of the same red flags no matter how they test the gate and how often and that inevitable requires more deputies to all be on the same line of policy as you grow and not create the wild west of law like Sherdog or like I said you make it worse in the opposite direction where disagreements on opinion end in bans

@I Wild Each It have talked long on this topic and are on the same page. Nothing I say here is suggestion to anyone, it's just stream of consciousness on what I think is often a bigger problem and obstacle to my own enjoyment of forums for over a decade and usually moreso than others in the end so I tend to be on the drastic side of explaining a problem. I am very good at noticing patterns and as a result I usually spot those repeat trolls about as fast as you can, and unfortunately I also know that I do not like authority in these types of places either so I can only be the bearer of warning and try and offer an opinion in the matter of what happens before the travel from point A to B becomes too far to fix which is you UG, or turning point A to a third point C no one but the privileged few enjoy like Sherdog.

 

[WoodenPupa]

Well, it may not be fair to cast everybody who doesn't stay silent a "troll responder". There are, in fact, plenty of reasonable responders to trolls---but these responders do stop responding after a while. The practical reality is that banning is needed, but I only regret that it is.

Let's also not forget that the label gets misused. Some people in past years, for example, have tagged Orcus a troll, but that's hard to buy, even if he was a paid poster.

 

[WoodenPupa]

I tend to be on the drastic side of explaining a problem.

I'd say you've simply described it well.

 

[ChaosOverkill]

Well, it may not be fair to cast everybody who doesn't stay silent a "troll responder". There are, in fact, plenty of reasonable responders to trolls---but these responders do stop responding after a while. The practical reality is that banning is needed, but I only regret that it is.

Let's also not forget that the label gets misused. Some people in past years, for example, have tagged Orcus a troll, but that's hard to buy, even if he was a paid poster.

yeah that's the line you can straddle, as much as he annoys me he at least provided his own evidence to claims, that's all I can ask from people who do tend to be contrarian for whatever reason. Trolling to me, is the absence of reason, evidence, logic or tempered discourse. Obviously passionate people get emotional, but that stuff is easy to see when it turns into just baiting people into freaking out with obtuse nonsense and that is more what the shill does and the bait troll does. Orcus, whatever he may be in the end straddles in between all of it to a level that may annoy me or a whole lot of people in terms of his view but is his own right to be and if you didn't really respond to him he didn't keep at you either.

 

[SickEye]

Some very interesting points being brought up.

Anyone with half a brain knows that modding an MMA forum is difficult at best. A sport like this inevitably draws strong feelings which leads to arguments and shit talking. Add to that the anonymity of the internet and it's a recipe for disaster.

If someone comes in and says "so-and-so fighter is a fucking cunt", then it's pretty cut and dry. Toss 'em out.

It's the benign type of trolls that are the worst. The ones that ambiguously fighter bash to the point that you don't even notice until it becomes obvious, as they usually zone in on a particular fighter.

What do mods do with fucks like that? They can't point to a particular post and ban them for it. These type of trolls hide behind the guise of 'opinion', and IMO not much can be done without being a nazi about it.

That's why I'm glad I'm not a mod! It's too bad that certain people can't help but be assholes at every turn, but such is life.

 

[Wild]

Some very interesting points being brought up.

Anyone with half a brain knows that modding an MMA forum is difficult at best. A sport like this inevitably draws strong feelings which leads to arguments and shit talking. Add to that the anonymity of the internet and it's a recipe for disaster.

If someone comes in and says "so-and-so fighter is a fucking cunt", then it's pretty cut and dry. Toss 'em out.

It's the benign type of trolls that are the worst. The ones that ambiguously fighter bash to the point that you don't even notice until it becomes obvious, as they usually zone in on a particular fighter.

What do mods do with fucks like that? They can't point to a particular post and ban them for it. These type of trolls hide behind the guise of 'opinion', and IMO not much can be done without being a nazi about it.

That's why I'm glad I'm not a mod! It's too bad that certain people can't help but be assholes at every turn, but such is life.

What I have to do is, remember that we're never going to please everyone. I tend to try and make everyone happy, and I take it personally when I can't. I have a lot of pride in what I, and we as a community stand for. So I need to trust our decisions to do whats best of the community, respectfully decline to comment to those that want to question why someone was banned, and remember that no one person is bigger than the community as a whole. If we feel someone needs to go, then they need to go. That might upset a few here and there, but what's the alternative? Be like everyone else? Everyone here is too invested in making this place great, for us to allow that to happen. The Community Standards are clearing defined and stickied everywhere, so it's pretty black & white as far as I'm concerned, right?

 

[SickEye]

What I have to do is, remember that we're never going to please everyone. I tend to try and make everyone happy, and I take it personally when I can't. I have a lot of pride in what I, and we as a community stand for. So I need to trust our decisions to do whats best of the community, respectfully decline to comment to those that want to question why someone was banned, and remember that no one person is bigger than the community as a whole. If we feel someone needs to go, then they need to go. That might upset a few here and there, but what's the alternative? Be like everyone else? Everyone here is too invested in making this place great, for us to allow that to happen. The Community Standards are clearing defined and stickied everywhere, so it's pretty black & white as far as I'm concerned, right?

Exactly. I trust you guys to know who needs to go and who doesn't, and you've done a damn fine job so far.

Unfortunately, sometimes alliances are formed among idiots and when one of them gets the hammer, the butt-buddies come out of the woodwork and "demand" answers. So fucking asinine LOL!

 

[Wild]

Exactly. I trust you guys to know who needs to go and who doesn't, and you've done a damn fine job so far.

Unfortunately, sometimes alliances are formed among idiots and when one of them gets the hammer, the butt-buddies come out of the woodwork and "demand" answers. So fucking asinine LOL!

Thanks brother. And that's when I need to remind myself that we dont have to answer everything...which I tend to try to do. Either ignore it, or show them the door as well. I know it sounds harsh, and I hope we never have to go there. But I also don't think it's reasonable to be expected to explain why someone was banned or suspended if it happens either. Hopefully we've earned enough trust from the members by now, that people know we're going to do what's best to make sure people that really want to be here, are able to have an enjoyable experience when they log on. Otherwise, we might as well shut it down and go do something else.

 

[WoodenPupa]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn-UZwtLfH4

 

[GJdeux]

Well, it may not be fair to cast everybody who doesn't stay silent a "troll responder". There are, in fact, plenty of reasonable responders to trolls---but these responders do stop responding after a while. The practical reality is that banning is needed, but I only regret that it is.

Let's also not forget that the label gets misused. Some people in past years, for example, have tagged Orcus a troll, but that's hard to buy, even if he was a paid poster.

I agree the label gets misused a lot. Its seems when there is a spirited discussion and one gets tired of talking he labels the other a troll and it takes on a life from there as people start to agree (those that agree with the "accusers" label) Maybe troll needs to be defined and operationalized so we are all on the same page.

 

[WoodenPupa]

I'm not quite with the message here, although practically speaking it doesn't matter. It COULD, though. If a friend of mine or someone I respected on here was banned and I didn't understand why, I would want to know why and would probably ask. If Zeph or Chaos were banned---just to pick two out of a crowd---I sure as hell would not sit on my hands and let the zen flow. The authoritarian majesty that denies even that conversation is pretty hard for me to understand.

If the ruling party is wise---at it appears to be here---then once again the problem is mostly theoretical. I personally have rarely been banned or muzzled, and have almost never associated with that type online. But should the day arise?

 

[WoodenPupa]

But I also don't think it's reasonable to be expected to explain why someone was banned or suspended if it happens either.

Gonna disagree on this one. You can't spend all day answering requests on those matters, but it's not unimaginable that you'd answer some of them, is it? Personally, I would post the reason on the offender's account profile and then leave it for all to see. Questions after that---which demand totally specific and detailed justification---those I can see you skipping out of necessity.

 

[DickNiaz]

I'm liking it, great job!