General Critical Race Theory

Welcome to our Community
Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to Sign Up today.
Sign up

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
48,237
60,284
I used to think this too. I don't anymore. Please tell me what else it was about.
I'm curious to see if you think what I used to think.
Slavery was certainly at the root of the entire mess, but the South also had concerns with the North - and the federal government - having influence over them. How many Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves? Like 25%? Most were poor as fuck. Those soldiers were fighting for their way of life and - arguably - against progress. And taxes. And overall federal government control. Many states didn't join the Confederate side until after Lincoln headed south to collect tarriffs and "protect" federal forts in the deep South.

It was about slavery. But it was also about state sovereignty and giving a middle finger to a new federal government that was flexing its muscles.

Note: By no means am I justifying the South's position and practice of owning slaves. That's a part of America's history that I wish never happened.
 
M

member 3289

Guest
Slavery was certainly at the root of the entire mess, but the South also had concerns with the North - and the federal government - having influence over them. How many Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves? Like 25%? Most were poor as fuck. Those soldiers were fighting for their way of life and - arguably - against progress. And taxes. And overall federal government control. Many states didn't join the Confederate side until after Lincoln headed south to collect tarriffs and "protect" federal forts in the deep South.

It was about slavery. But it was also about state sovereignty and giving a middle finger to a new federal government that was flexing its muscles.

Note: By no means am I justifying the South's position and practice of owning slaves. That's a part of America's history that I wish never happened.

View: https://youtu.be/_Q--iGgtRn8
 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
48,237
60,284
it’s a legal graduate theory analyzing the legislative and juidicial framework of the united states and it’s history of white supremacy. things like slavery, segregation, killing all the natives.
K.
All those things were taught when I was in grade school. Are they not anymore?
 
T

The Big Guy

Guest
you tried, they knew the lands and escaped and then fought back. so you imported people from another continent who eventually escaped and fought back.

you guys lost twice lulz
One got casinoes the other got the drug market.

Both are better off with our fumbled efforts
 
D

Deleted member 1

Guest
It was about slavery. But it was also about state sovereignty and giving a middle finger to a new federal government that was flexing its muscles.
Yeah this was what my thinking was. Until you start really reading into everything and essentially it was:

Slavery...
And states rights to have slaves...
And economic threat...due to shitty farming practices that needed arable land and slaves


Nobody was going to war over the states rights for some other reason.

South Carolina declared secession and others followed and every single one of them declared it was because of government hostilities to their slave owning:

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.[2

All of the talk about states rights as an excuse or a federal overreach as an excuse. All ignore that it was states rights to hold slaves. And federal overreach in preventing slaves.

The slave states that originally refused to secede would later invoke that They didn't want to secede, but now the federal government was overreaching and not allowing others to secede to maintain slaves. Again, they stated directly that they were seceding in alliance with slave states because they support the other states rights to hold slaves.

Not a single slave state left the union without stating that it was because of slavery and attempts to stop slavery.

Stating any other cause without immediately following it with the word slave is revisionist on purpose. I too was once caught up and believing that. Of course I would hope history is more complex and multi-factorial. But it really wasn't.
 
M

member 1013

Guest
Yeah this was what my thinking was. Until you start really reading into everything and essentially it was:

Slavery...
And states rights to have slaves...
And economic threat...due to shitty farming practices that needed arable land and slaves


Nobody was going to war over the states rights for some other reason.

South Carolina declared secession and others followed and every single one of them declared it was because of government hostilities to their slave owning:




All of the talk about states rights as an excuse or a federal overreach as an excuse. All ignore that it was states rights to hold slaves. And federal overreach in preventing slaves.

The slave states that originally refused to secede would later invoke that They didn't want to secede, but now the federal government was overreaching and not allowing others to secede to maintain slaves. Again, they stated directly that they were seceding in alliance with slave states because they support the other states rights to hold slaves.

Not a single slave state left the union without stating that it was because of slavery and attempts to stop slavery.

Stating any other cause without immediately following it with the word slave is revisionist on purpose. I too was once caught up and believing that. Of course I would hope history is more complex and multi-factorial. But it really wasn't.
dawg Hauler @Hauler was analyzing the complexities of various laws and cases as they pertain to racial hierarchies in an ethno-supremacist state in grade school
 
D

Deleted member 1

Guest
. How many Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves? Like 25%? Most were poor as fuck. Those soldiers were fighting for their way of life and - arguably - against progress. And taxes. And overall federal government control. Many states didn't join the Confederate side until after Lincoln headed south to collect tarriffs and "protect" federal forts in the deep South.
Lincoln sent unarmed ships to Sumter which South Carolina stated was their line in the sand and would be an act of aggression. When Lincoln ordered other states militias to secure the fort It was too much for other slave states. That is South Carolina stated clearly they were leaving because they wanted slaves. Federal government attempts to supply a federal fort and South Carolina basically declares Confederate war. Others don't want to secede and Lincoln says hey. Take your militias and go secure that. Those slave states said yo bro we're not trying to secede but we're slave bros. And if they want to have slaves we want them to have slaves and this is far too far. What are you going to do Come after our slaves next?

It was about slavery in South Carolina. It was about slavery when the remainder of the south seceded in support of South Carolina's right to own slaves. It was about slavery when stating the federal government didn't have the right to enforce anti-slavery policies.



Also...
Please post any document, polling or otherwise, showing that there was a significant concern about federal taxes and way of life by these individual soldiers?
Beyond the fact that it is absolutely fool hardy to act as if wars are decided by individual soldiers opinions instead of leaders opinions, you broach the subject and I would love to see documents showing actually what individual soldiers thought about.

Soldiers fighting took orders. They didn't decide the reason for the war. They didn't draft the stated articles of secession. They didn't instruct securing a fort. But I'm excited to see your letters posting by Confederate soldiers about their worry with federal tax policy and cultural assimilation.
 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
48,237
60,284
Also...
Please post any document, polling or otherwise, showing that there was a significant concern about federal taxes and way of life by these individual soldiers?
Beyond the fact that it is absolutely fool hardy to act as if wars are decided by individual soldiers opinions instead of leaders opinions, you broach the subject and I would love to see documents showing actually what individual soldiers thought about.

Soldiers fighting took orders. They didn't decide the reason for the war. They didn't draft the stated articles of secession. They didn't instruct securing a fort. But I'm excited to see your letters posting by Confederate soldiers about their worry with federal tax policy and cultural assimilation
I can't. Well, not without visiting some unsavory sites I don't care to open on my browser .

I pulled that part out of my ass.
 

NotBanjaxo

Formerly someone other than Banjaxo
Nov 16, 2019
9,224
18,821
You talking to me or @Splinty ???
I was talking to @Splinty, who took your very reasonable position of "sensibility probably falls somewhere in the middle." then responded as if you had said "the truth is supposedly always a compromise between two opposing positions."

I believe that was a straw man argument, but I will have to defer to @Splinty as he is the resident TMMAC expert on fallacies. ;)
 
M

member 1013

Guest
I was talking to @Splinty, who took your very reasonable position of "sensibility probably falls somewhere in the middle." then responded as if you had said "the truth is supposedly always a compromise between two opposing positions."

I believe that was a straw man argument, but I will have to defer to @Splinty as he is the resident TMMAC expert on fallacies. ;)
ad hominem
 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
48,237
60,284
I was talking to @Splinty, who took your very reasonable position of "sensibility probably falls somewhere in the middle." then responded as if you had said "the truth is supposedly always a compromise between two opposing positions."

I believe that was a straw man argument, but I will have to defer to @Splinty as he is the resident TMMAC expert on fallacies. ;)
Yeah! Good lookin out!

 

NotBanjaxo

Formerly someone other than Banjaxo
Nov 16, 2019
9,224
18,821
ad hominem
Really?

I thought that by taking what was (in my opinion) a very reasonable position, and then taking it to an extreme in order to ridicule it, he was effectively attacking a "straw man"?
 

NotBanjaxo

Formerly someone other than Banjaxo
Nov 16, 2019
9,224
18,821
Oh and I just realised that I tagged @Splinty twice in the above post, as well as once on the previous page and once in this post.

I ain't no pussy!
 
D

Deleted member 1

Guest
I can't. Well, not without visiting some unsavory sites I don't care to open on my browser .

I pulled that part out of my ass.

I knew you did. Because I also have been told the same stuff my entire life and assume there must be some basis to it. Then I read a few books on the subject and tried to find data backing these other opinions.

There are multitude of sons of the Confederacy type groups that distort the history.

Then they talk about is "since the majority f Confederate the population was in the states that left after the Battle of fort Sumter isn't it true to state that the primary cause of the civil war was states rights?"

This is where all of this stuff comes from.
South Carolina left due to slaves. So did several other states.
When it was attempted to enforce anti-slavery policies, other slave states joined for the right to maintain slaves. Those other states made up approximately 51% of the Confederate population. But the population of a state is ridiculous As a metric for support of a particular policy.
And it also ignores that many of these states had anti-democratic policies where you had to be landed gentry just to vote.
Confederate States, and in fact most of the United States originally, was highly anti-democratic without representation for most average people. Making reference to a state's population instead of the articles of secession is the kind of revisionist history that you and I have been victim to our entire lives.

The civil war was plainly about slavery. Every cultural clash was about slavery. The state's rights were about slavery. Government overreach was only due to arguments on whether the federal government has the right to enforce anti-slavery policies.

Even North Carolina, perhaps the most ambivalent to Confederate State with a strong abolitionist movement still went along and said you should have the right to own slaves in another state if you want to and we are seceding over that. And that's a state that would probably have eventually outlawed slavery on its own. They had already made a number of policies trying to only allow slaves from inside the United States instead of overseas. For instance. They had a large Quaker movement that was against slavery. The government attempted an early succession stating it was for slavery directly and was overturned by the abolitionist to hoped for a more peaceful wait and see mode. And that's about as good as the not about slavery arguments go. All other states were significantly more direct that they were going to war for their own slavery reasons.
 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
48,237
60,284
I knew you did. Because I also have been told the same stuff my entire life and assume there must be some basis to it. Then I read a few books on the subject and tried to find data backing these other opinions.

There are multitude of sons of the Confederacy type groups that distort the history.

Then they talk about is "since the majority f Confederate the population was in the states that left after the Battle of fort Sumter isn't it true to state that the primary cause of the civil war was states rights?"

This is where all of this stuff comes from.
South Carolina left due to slaves. So did several other states.
When it was attempted to enforce anti-slavery policies, other slave states joined for the right to maintain slaves. Those other states made up approximately 51% of the Confederate population. But the population of a state is ridiculous As a metric for support of a particular policy.
And it also ignores that many of these states had anti-democratic policies where you had to be landed gentry just to vote.
Confederate States, and in fact most of the United States originally, was highly anti-democratic without representation for most average people. Making reference to a state's population instead of the articles of secession is the kind of revisionist history that you and I have been victim to our entire lives.

The civil war was plainly about slavery. Every cultural clash was about slavery. The state's rights were about slavery. Government overreach was only due to arguments on whether the federal government has the right to enforce anti-slavery policies.

Even North Carolina, perhaps the most ambivalent to Confederate State with a strong abolitionist movement still went along and said you should have the right to own slaves in another state if you want to and we are seceding over that. And that's a state that would probably have eventually outlawed slavery on its own. They had already made a number of policies trying to only allow slaves from inside the United States instead of overseas. For instance. They had a large Quaker movement that was against slavery. The government attempted an early succession stating it was for slavery directly and was overturned by the abolitionist to hoped for a more peaceful wait and see mode. And that's about as good as the not about slavery arguments go. All other states were significantly more direct that they were going to war for their own slavery reasons.
You forgot this...