General 14 students, 1 teacher dead following mass school shooting in Texas

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Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
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Then you should be allowed to buy a musket dating back when constitution was written, not an AR 15 with a massive clip.
AR15s don't have clips.

and when the Constitution was written I could own cannons and warships.

so yeah, let's go back to when the FedGov was allotted a "well-regulated militia" and not the largest domestic police force incarcerating the most people in the history of humanity.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
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The what-about’ism is strong with this one.
didn't notice all the other ones that are complete bullshit, and pointing to the civil rights of the 1960s (advanced by the Republicans) is a non-sequitur. If that's why we're fucked up as a society, how much more fucked up is British society after centuries of international oppression?
 

Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
26,916
26,589
AR15s don't have clips.

and when the Constitution was written I could own cannons and warships.

so yeah, let's go back to when the FedGov was allotted a "well-regulated militia" and not the largest domestic police force incarcerating the most people in the history of humanity.
Are you no longer permitted to own a cannon?
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,718
AR15s don't have clips.

and when the Constitution was written I could own cannons and warships.

so yeah, let's go back to when the FedGov was allotted a "well-regulated militia" and not the largest domestic police force incarcerating the most people in the history of humanity.
Do you think that there's a link - any link at all - between the entire country being knee deep in guns, and the overly militarised police force?

??
 
D

Deleted member 1

Guest
OK - what level of self-defense does a functioning adult deserve?

auto-loading handgun?

They don't deserve any more.

Time to put the hours in for training and permitting. Can't do it or won't do it? You shouldn't own the weapon.
Being able to pay your bills and work a job doesn't mean you're a safe gun owner.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
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right to defend oneself yes. we just disagree with what weapons that implies

i do not think people should be allowed to have:
- nuclear bombs
- attack helicopters
- tanks
- mines
- mortars
- rocket propelled grenades

im sure you and i would agree on at least some of those

when it comes to guns, i dont think most humans have the right to them. i think background checks and training at a minimum

and i havent thought through the topic in details, but i would probably go much further in terms of home defense laws. guns for home defense make more defense in rural areas then in populated areas where police are more readily available

i understand that arguments will then be made about the laws disproportionately affecting lower class. but ... i dont give a fuck

----

i also think other things would lessen the amount of violent acts of despair:

- universal healthcare
- higher minimum wage
- universal basic income
I agree with the sentiment, but you're going to find that I think the people should have the same armaments as the State, and the solution is to disarm the State first. So when gov'ts give up nuclear weapons and mortars, the people will give them up.

while i think that the conceptual goals of less scarcity (in healthcare and other resources) are the right goals, I simply don't trust the consolidated power of bureacracy to look after anything but itself. Charity and social accountability are the right path, forcing people to give up their earnings to men with guns to "redistribute fairly" only exacerbates the problems of wealth disparity.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,641
They don't deserve any more.

Time to put the hours in for training and permitting. Can't do it or won't do it? You shouldn't own the weapon.
Being able to pay your bills and work a job doesn't mean you're a safe gun owner.
OK - so a single mother of 3 doesn't deserve the right to defend herself like Micheal Kutcher.

if you're born in to privilege, your life matters more.
 

Gully Foyle

Active Member
Jun 16, 2021
155
183
AR15s don't have clips.

and when the Constitution was written I could own cannons and warships.

so yeah, let's go back to when the FedGov was allotted a "well-regulated militia" and not the largest domestic police force incarcerating the most people in the history of humanity.
You telling me that this shooter could have rolled up a cannon to the school?
Tell me how many bullets does AR-15 hold in it? Why you need to have 20-30 rounds in a gun, what war are you fighting here?

You can't have 5 rounds say as a maximum, and only 30 round pistols reserved for police, why isn't it do-able?
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,718
pointing to the civil rights of the 1960s (advanced by the Republicans)
You just can't help being dishonest, can you. :smile:

Want to talk about the Southern Strategy? Want me to post the famous Lee Atwater quote about it?

What did LBJ say to his aide a few hours after signing the Civil Rights Act? Did he say that the Democrats have just sewn up the South for a generation to come?

I don't understand the compulsion you right wing types have about lying about it and pretending like you're some neutral party.

Besides, aren't the two parties the same? How are "The Republicans" responsible for advancing the civil rights movement and the Democrats aren't, when both parties are just one beast with two heads?

??
 

mysticmac

First 1025
Oct 18, 2015
16,192
18,609
the 2nd amendment was passed in 1791

guns today are different than the guns of 1791

what im getting at is that, i dont give a fuck about a law from 1791. i care about what makes sense today
Does it not make sense to allow people to defend themselves? It has been found by many research organizations, including the CDC, that guns are used for self defense at least as often as they are used offensively in crimes.

Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.

Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or injury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in public—concealed or open carry—may have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or outweigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use (Kellermann et al., 1992, 1993, 1995). Although some early studies were published that relate to this issue, they were not conclusive, and this is a sufficiently important question that it merits additional, careful exploration.
Source.

You can find more research results here.

Do you think it is possible that the media gives a lot of coverage to events such as the topic of this thread and do not do the same when it comes to events where guns are used defensively, and that may be influencing the opinions of many regarding private gun ownership?
 
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Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,641
@Splinty - should you be required to have a HS diploma before you can petition the gov't or peacably assemble?

should you have to pass competency tests to vote?

should you have to pass a background check be free from unreasonable searches and seizures?
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,641
You just can't help being dishonest, can you. :smile:

Want to talk about the Southern Strategy? Want me to post the famous Lee Atwater quote about it?

I don't understand the compulsion you right wing types have about lying about it and pretending like you're some neutral party.

Besides, aren't the two parties the same? How are "The Republicans" responsible for advancing the civil rights movement and the Democrats aren't, when both parties are just one beast with two heads?

??
now I'm right wing?

couple days ago I was left wing.
 
D

Deleted member 1

Guest
OK - so a single mother of 3 doesn't deserve the right to defend herself like Micheal Kutcher.

if you're born in to privilege, your life matters more.
Sure she does. A shotgun is an excellent home defense weapon. It's difficult to kill the neighbor across the street shooting through the wall and it's easy for police to disarm a public gunman.
It's a pretty good compromise considering that she has no training whatsoever and is purchasing a deadly weapon. For all I know she lives in an apartment and she still might blast a hole through the wall injuring her immediate neighbor. But at least she'll only do it twice.


But this whole post is just politicians speak to appeal to sympathies rather than realize that there's more than one person involved when you own a gun. The guns effects don't end at the barrel, but go far beyond it. Both physically and figuratively.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,641
You telling me that this shooter could have rolled up a cannon to the school?
Tell me how many bullets does AR-15 hold in it? Why you need to have 20-30 rounds in a gun, what war are you fighting here?

You can't have 5 rounds say as a maximum, and only 30 round pistols reserved for police, why isn't it do-able?

car bombs, how do they work.

Andrew Kehoe knows.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,641
Sure she does. A shotgun is an excellent home defense weapon. It's difficult to kill the neighbor across the street shooting through the wall and it's easy for police to disarm a public gunman.
It's a pretty good compromise considering that she has no training whatsoever and is purchasing a deadly weapon. For all I know she lives in an apartment and she still might blast a hole through the wall injuring her immediate neighbor. But at least she'll only do it twice.


But this whole post is just politicians speak to appeal to sympathies rather than realize that there's more than one person involved when you own a gun. The guns affects don't end at the barrel, but go far beyond it. Both physically and figuratively.

OK - but she hasn't earned the right to be safe walking back and forth to work.

only Don Jr has earned such a right by virtue of his birth.

also - cite an instance of overpenetration by a civilian injuring another civilian.
 

kaladin stormblessed

Nala fanboy
Apr 24, 2017
17,652
20,029
I agree with the sentiment, but you're going to find that I think the people should have the same armaments as the State, and the solution is to disarm the State first. So when gov'ts give up nuclear weapons and mortars, the people will give them up.

while i think that the conceptual goals of less scarcity (in healthcare and other resources) are the right goals, I simply don't trust the consolidated power of bureacracy to look after anything but itself. Charity and social accountability are the right path, forcing people to give up their earnings to men with guns to "redistribute fairly" only exacerbates the problems of wealth disparity.
Putting the social democracy differences we have aside and focusing on the guns issue:

I hear ya on the citizens vs government thing. That's why I wouldve bought into the 2nd amendment when it first came out

But guns no longer pose a threat to a tyrannical government that has a military like America's

Nevertheless, in theory, I would want a gun if the government went loco. Even if only for my own last stand with the fam

But there are pros and cons to a nation full of guns. I have the option to get a gun right now for that theoretical scenario. But I choose not to get one since I believe the cons exceed the pros

The con being that, if I had a gun, I would be much more likely to kill someone than if I didn't have a gun

And I wish it wasn't as easy for others to have guns for a similar reason in reverse
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,718
now I'm right wing?

couple days ago I was left wing.
Nope, your big thing seems to be a) hating on the Dems, b) shilling or making excuses for Republicans, and c) claiming that you have no dog in this fight, that you're an unbiased observer etc.

Not the case though, is it. ?

You really gonna claim with a straight face that the GOP is the party of civil rights?

??
 

Gully Foyle

Active Member
Jun 16, 2021
155
183
car bombs, how do they work.

Andrew Kehoe knows.
Why bother constructing a car bomb when you can walk into into any gun store and buy an AR-15.

People just want these guns because you want them, there is no reason to have them.
Have a hunting rifle if you live in rural area, why you need this is beyond me.
 

mysticmac

First 1025
Oct 18, 2015
16,192
18,609
Sure she does. A shotgun is an excellent home defense weapon. It's difficult to kill the neighbor across the street shooting through the wall and it's easy for police to disarm a public gunman.
It's a pretty good compromise considering that she has no training whatsoever and is purchasing a deadly weapon. For all I know she lives in an apartment and she still might blast a hole through the wall injuring her immediate neighbor. But at least she'll only do it twice.


But this whole post is just politicians speak to appeal to sympathies rather than realize that there's more than one person involved when you own a gun. The guns affects don't end at the barrel, but go far beyond it. Both physically and figuratively.
Do you think that someone who has not had a training class does not know how to safely operate a firearm?
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,641
Putting the social democracy differences we have aside and focusing on the guns issue:

I hear ya on the citizens vs government thing. That's why I wouldve bought into the 2nd amendment when it first came out

But guns no longer pose a threat to a tyrannical government that has a military like America's
the Taliban would like to show you something...
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,641
Why bother constructing a car bomb when you can walk into into any gun store and buy an AR-15.

People just want these guns because you want them, there is no reason to have them.
Have a hunting rifle if you live in rural area, why you need this is beyond me.
an AR wasn't used, AFAIK. it was a handgun. So let's stop throwing around the Boogeyman Gun like it's superkilling machine that possesses people with evil

look at Hong Kong, see if you can put the pieces of "why" together.
 
D

Deleted member 1

Guest
@Splinty - should you be required to have a HS diploma before you can petition the gov't or peacably assemble?

should you have to pass competency tests to vote?

should you have to pass a background check be free from unreasonable searches and seizures?
In the same way that free speech has some limitations, So does the second amendment currently.

I'm suggesting absolutely nothing different other than I focus on factual risk evaluation of each weapon and safe user skillset rather than arbitrary lines being 18 or 21.

The second amendment is particularly unique because it involves the right to a physical item. But clearly it isn't any item of that physical title as this is already limited. It's currently okay to limit concealed carry to only trained individuals.
It's okay to limit automatic weapons only to extensive background checks.
It's okay to ban outright entire classes of weapons from civilian ownership.
It's okay to limit the transfer of certain weapons only between those who have met the criteria above.