The Legacy of Showtime

[wiggum]

Showtime is very young and has a long career ahead of him. But if he retired today, where would he fall all-time as a lightweight? At first, I thought he wouldn't fall pretty high. But consider the following:

• 2 convincing wins over Benson Henderson (his WEC win was close, but decisive)
• Submission over Gil Melendez
• Absolute destruction and TKO of Cowboy
• Destruction KO of Joe Lauzon
• Losses to Dos Anjos and a "loss" to Gray Maynard

Let's compare that with Frankie Edgar*, who is on the short list of all-time great LWs:

• 1 draw, 1 win, 1 loss to Gray Maynard
• 2 close losses to Benson Henderson, one very controversial
• 2 wins over BJ Penn, one unambiguous and one controversial
• Wins over Sherk, Bocek, Fisher

Who has had clearly better careers than Showtime at LW? BJ for sure. Gomi probably. Frankie? I don't think so based on the above. Who am I missing?

*Note: I think Frankie would be a nightmare matchup for Showtime. I thought so before the RDA fight. (I was wrong in thinking Frankie was the only guy who could beat him).

 

[Priziesthorse]

Your linear undisputed lightweight champion, Clay Guida.

Wins over Pettis, RDA, Diaz, Gomi, and Josh Thomson

No one can defend.

 

[Greek777]

We'll see. You can't really judge someone's legacy mid career. What if Pettis becomes a 50/50 fighter the rest of his career? What if he never is the same? What if he wins every fight until h retres?

We dunno, his legacy isn't cemented either way yet. However, when you see things like this happen.. it really reminds you how many ways their are to lose in MMA. It's VERY hard to be undefeated for any length of time. That's why, IMO, Fedor is by far the greatest ever. Out of every fighter to compete in MMA whose career has started and ended.. 10 years unbeaten on top of the HW division for 7 = mind boggling impressive. Boxing is a lot different. You can only lose one way in boxing, and that's by getting hit in the face. In MMA, man, there are SO many variables. You have to be perfect at EVERYTHING on EVERY fight night. Pettis very well could end up one of the greatest ever, or he might end up being one of those natural gifted athletes who relied too much on his talent and didn't put the work in the same way a guy like RDA had to in order to get to that level, because he was so talented. Eventually those hungry guys are going to catch up to you. All speculation, but yeah, Pettis did seem to enjoy partying and shit between fights, he also had a longggg break after he won the title.

One thing is for sure, pre fight Pettis kinda seemed to believe his own hype. Rufus with the Mayweather comparisons, and did anyone see Pettis' house on Embedded? His entire house is covered with paintings of himself. Lol. 4 hair cuts a week too. He definitely is into himself.

Anyway.. It always seems like any tim the UFC/Dana promote a guy as "the new Anderson Silva", the "new #1 pound for pound".. they go out and lose. Once they started hyping Barao that way, he lost. Pettis gets the same praise/hype, he gets destroyed.

I want Conor to beat Aldo but due to all the hype they've put in to Conor it wouldn't shock me at all if the plans blow up in the UFC's face and he gets wrecked. Shit happens all the time.

What's weird to me in this sport, is like every 2-3 years, some new guy comes along who is now "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME!". It's annoying and people need to just let careers play out, respect those who have been there and done it already, and just wait and see.

Lots of guys we see right now who people consider "phenoms" and "all time greats" are in the middle of their athletic prime. Let's see wher ethey are 5-7 years from now before people start running around saying they are the greatest.

Everyone loses in MMA. 20 years from now, I highly doubt there will be a champion who went his entire career without a SINGLE loss who retired undefeated. Again, it makes it even crazier that Fedor never lost mid career, and only at the end. I doubt Jones goes his entire career without losing.

Plenty of people said Anderson would never lose, he was unstoppable, greatest ever, etc.

Look at Anderson in late 2012 after he destroyed Bonnar in a joke fight. EVERYONE thought "oh my god he's just so amazing".. Would anyone have guessed in his nxt 2 fights that his career would be almost put at an end, and THEN the entire PED scandal would happen (where he couldn't even hurt a 170 lber while geared up)? That hurts his legacy BADLY.

So anyway ,rant over. "Legacy" is a silly idea to talk about for a fighter in his late 20s. Who knows what his legacy will be? I love watching him fight, that's for sure, and he finishes guys in really amazing ways. But you never know who else out there might have the answer to beating him.

 

[Greek777]

Also.. I love Frankie, man. I think he still beats most lightweights, and possibly any featherweight today (as in, he very well may be able to beat Aldo on a good night)

 

[wiggum]

We'll see. You can't really judge someone's legacy mid career. What if Pettis becomes a 50/50 fighter the rest of his career? What if he never is the same? What if he wins every fight until h retres?

We dunno, his legacy isn't cemented either way yet. However, when you see things like this happen.. it really reminds you how many ways their are to lose in MMA. It's VERY hard to be undefeated for any length of time. That's why, IMO, Fedor is by far the greatest ever. Out of every fighter to compete in MMA whose career has started and ended.. 10 years unbeaten on top of the HW division for 7 = mind boggling impressive. Boxing is a lot different. You can only lose one way in boxing, and that's by getting hit in the face. In MMA, man, there are SO many variables. You have to be perfect at EVERYTHING on EVERY fight night. Pettis very well could end up one of the greatest ever, or he might end up being one of those natural gifted athletes who relied too much on his talent and didn't put the work in the same way a guy like RDA had to in order to get to that level, because he was so talented. Eventually those hungry guys are going to catch up to you. All speculation, but yeah, Pettis did seem to enjoy partying and shit between fights, he also had a longggg break after he won the title.

One thing is for sure, pre fight Pettis kinda seemed to believe his own hype. Rufus with the Mayweather comparisons, and did anyone see Pettis' house on Embedded? His entire house is covered with paintings of himself. Lol. 4 hair cuts a week too. He definitely is into himself.

Anyway.. It always seems like any tim the UFC/Dana promote a guy as "the new Anderson Silva", the "new #1 pound for pound".. they go out and lose. Once they started hyping Barao that way, he lost. Pettis gets the same praise/hype, he gets destroyed.

I want Conor to beat Aldo but due to all the hype they've put in to Conor it wouldn't shock me at all if the plans blow up in the UFC's face and he gets wrecked. Shit happens all the time.

What's weird to me in this sport, is like every 2-3 years, some new guy comes along who is now "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME!". It's annoying and people need to just let careers play out, respect those who have been there and done it already, and just wait and see.

Lots of guys we see right now who people consider "phenoms" and "all time greats" are in the middle of their athletic prime. Let's see wher ethey are 5-7 years from now before people start running around saying they are the greatest.

Everyone loses in MMA. 20 years from now, I highly doubt there will be a champion who went his entire career without a SINGLE loss who retired undefeated. Again, it makes it even crazier that Fedor never lost mid career, and only at the end. I doubt Jones goes his entire career without losing.

Plenty of people said Anderson would never lose, he was unstoppable, greatest ever, etc.

Look at Anderson in late 2012 after he destroyed Bonnar in a joke fight. EVERYONE thought "oh my god he's just so amazing".. Would anyone have guessed in his nxt 2 fights that his career would be almost put at an end, and THEN the entire PED scandal would happen (where he couldn't even hurt a 170 lber while geared up)? That hurts his legacy BADLY.

So anyway ,rant over. "Legacy" is a silly idea to talk about for a fighter in his late 20s. Who knows what his legacy will be? I love watching him fight, that's for sure, and he finishes guys in really amazing ways. But you never know who else out there might have the answer to beating him.

Great response. To be clear, I did say if he retired today. I agree you can't judge a guy's legacy mid-career because you don't know what will happen moving forward. (Related: a guy can cement his legacy. I don't care if Shogun and Hendo lose another 100 fights. Both will always be all-time greats and their losses now mean very little to me).

A really interesting comparison is between Fedor and Jones. To what extent should length play a role and to what extent should fights play a role? I think there has to be a middle ground - otherwise Shogun would be universally considered near the top 5 for what he did in 2005. Time matters (on this, Fedor reigns supreme), but so do wins (on this, I think Jones might be at the top, though Aldo is close (for guys who didn't lose during their runs)).

When you see guys who are supposed to be the next great champs - Cain, Machida, Barrao - lose, it puts Fedor, GSP, Aldo, and Silva's reigns in perspective.

 

[wiggum]

Also.. I love Frankie, man. I think he still beats most lightweights, and possibly any featherweight today (as in, he very well may be able to beat Aldo on a good night)

Yeah, I do, too. I don't think there is a single fighter I'd pick to beat him 8/10 times in the three weight classes in which he can compete. He'd have a damn good shot at anybody at 155 IMO; I'd pick him over anybody not named Jose at 145; and I'd pick him over everyone at 135.

 

[Fett_Loadin76]

Your linear undisputed lightweight champion, Clay Guida.

Wins over Pettis, RDA, Diaz, Gomi, and Josh Thomson

No one can defend.

 

[Pitbull9]

Frankie Beat BJ 3 times the third time was destruction. Pettis is doing well but Frankie is def up there with the best ever at LW IMO. Pettis can easily be beat the blueprint is out there. If you stand in front of him he will pick you apart but if you do what Clay and RDA did it can be your night. Gil couldve done that also but was just doing what Carla tried to do and go for takedown after takedown without mixing any strikes in there.

 

[wiggum]

Frankie Beat BJ 3 times the third time was destruction. Pettis is doing well but Frankie is def up there with the best ever at LW IMO. Pettis can easily be beat the blueprint is out there. If you stand in front of him he will pick you apart but if you do what Clay and RDA did it can be your night. Gil couldve done that also but was just doing what Carla tried to do and go for takedown after takedown without mixing any strikes in there.

God, I completely forgot about the third BJ fight.

Showtime definitely seems to be more beatable than Frankie. Is there anybody ever who could beat Frankie 7/10 times? Gosh, maybe Jose but I'm not even sure. Frankie is an all-time great.

But based on his record, is he more accomplished than Showtime?

 

[seekntruth]

Frankie Beat BJ 3 times the third time was destruction.

Hey Hey Hey, the 3rd time was Brolce BJ at FW, the topic here is at LW. Let's not bring up that travesty please. Thanks

 

[Pitbull9]

God, I completely forgot about the third BJ fight.

Showtime definitely seems to be more beatable than Frankie. Is there anybody ever who could beat Frankie 7/10 times? Gosh, maybe Jose but I'm not even sure. Frankie is an all-time great.

But based on his record, is he more accomplished than Showtime?

Im not sure but records in MMA are so hard to go by i mean shit look at Randy, and even BJ. I actually hate records im MMA to be honest because you can get an undefeated guy and be like WOAH! and then look at who he beat and be like oooooh ok lol. When you get guys like BJ and Randy who since the get go have fought pretty much the best there is to offer but dont have a crazy record, some uneducated people will say oh they suck. Frankie also has pretty much fought the best of the best i mean not so much in the beginning but that is just paying dues. Pettis is great and i DEF DO NOT want to take anything away from him but the SHOWTIME thing is his biggest enemy as well as his biggest asset. Also i was terribly disappointed with Duke in his corner not really giving him much advice on how to handle the fight when it wasnt going his way. He needs to get to work with Askren and maybe do striking 2 days a week and grappling 4 days a week and S&C mixed in with significant rest to let his body respond and recover.

 

[Pitbull9]

Hey Hey Hey, the 3rd time was Brolce BJ at FW, the topic here is at LW. Let's not bring up that travesty please. Thanks

We dont really know the truth on that but at the end of the day it was BJ who decided to change his fight style which was silly after like 20 years of doing what he does best.

 

[wiggum]

We dont really know the truth on that but at the end of the day it was BJ who decided to change his fight style which was silly after like 20 years of doing what he does best.

His point is that the fight wasn't at LW. IT was at FW and isn't particularly relevant to this topic.

 

[wiggum]

Im not sure but records in MMA are so hard to go by i mean shit look at Randy, and even BJ. I actually hate records im MMA to be honest because you can get an undefeated guy and be like WOAH! and then look at who he beat and be like oooooh ok lol. When you get guys like BJ and Randy who since the get go have fought pretty much the best there is to offer but dont have a crazy record, some uneducated people will say oh they suck. Frankie also has pretty much fought the best of the best i mean not so much in the beginning but that is just paying dues. Pettis is great and i DEF DO NOT want to take anything away from him but the SHOWTIME thing is his biggest enemy as well as his biggest asset. Also i was terribly disappointed with Duke in his corner not really giving him much advice on how to handle the fight when it wasnt going his way. He needs to get to work with Askren and maybe do striking 2 days a week and grappling 4 days a week and S&C mixed in with significant rest to let his body respond and recover.

Yeah. This is a good point. Going on the eyeball test, I think it's clear that at this point, Frankie has had a better career at LW. Comparing records is trickier.

 

[Pitbull9]

His point is that the fight wasn't at LW. IT was at FW and isn't particularly relevant to this topic.

Oh ok lol. Either way to LWs fighting just at a different weight class. I still hate that Dana pushed frankie to FW.

 

[seekntruth]

We dont really know the truth on that but at the end of the day it was BJ who decided to change his fight style which was silly after like 20 years of doing what he does best.

Haha, I was just trying to divert the talk away from that embarrassment of a fight. I'd rather that whole deal just disappear from Bj's legacy. It was just sad on all fronts.

 

[seekntruth]

Im not sure but records in MMA are so hard to go by i mean shit look at Randy, and even BJ. I actually hate records im MMA to be honest because you can get an undefeated guy and be like WOAH! and then look at who he beat and be like oooooh ok lol. When you get guys like BJ and Randy who since the get go have fought pretty much the best there is to offer but dont have a crazy record, some uneducated people will say oh they suck. Frankie also has pretty much fought the best of the best i mean not so much in the beginning but that is just paying dues. Pettis is great and i DEF DO NOT want to take anything away from him but the SHOWTIME thing is his biggest enemy as well as his biggest asset. Also i was terribly disappointed with Duke in his corner not really giving him much advice on how to handle the fight when it wasnt going his way. He needs to get to work with Askren and maybe do striking 2 days a week and grappling 4 days a week and S&C mixed in with significant rest to let his body respond and recover.

Very nice post.

 

[Pitbull9]

Haha, I was just trying to divert the talk away from that embarrassment of a fight. I'd rather that whole deal just disappear from Bj's legacy. It was just sad on all fronts.

I agree and im a huge fan of both.

 

[Zeph]

Lightweight is such a shark tank. I don't think we will see someone dominate that division to the level BJ did for a while. As for where Showtime would rank for all time lightweights, I think the best way to structure that discussion is through a tiered system. As I don't think you can really separate some guys to a meaningful degree.

Currently you'd have BJ in tier of his own, based on accomplishments. Let's call it A+ tier. Then I think in the tier below you'd have Henderson, Frankie, Gomi and Showtime. All 4 are fucking killers and held the title, but didn't have the sort of divisional dominance to get them onto BJ's level, so they would be A tier.

After that I'd probably have an A- tier, for Sean Sherk and RDA currently. Personally, I don't think the muscle shark was quite good enough to get onto the A tier, but he held the UFC title and so deserves to be above the B tier. Whereas RDA just won it, and has had a checkered career to the title. Let's see him defend it before moving him up.

Then in the B tier you'd have the perennial contenders, like Cowboy, Melendez, Florian and anyone else that is/was just below the top guys, but never won the belt.

A+
BJ Penn

A
Frankie
Henderson
Gomi
Showtime

A-
RDA
Sean Sherk

B
Cowboy
Florian
Melendez
The Pack

 

[Greek777]

Wiggum, I just wanted to say, great posts in this thread. Your contributions are MUCH appreciated and I look forward to reading more.

I always enjoyed reading your stuff on that other forum, and thought you were one of the more knowledgeable, respectful people over there. Great to see you checking this place out and posting. Every post ITT is spot on. I agree with you 100% on the Jones thing too. Jones has destroyed an extremely elite level of competition

BUT, can you make the argument that most of the elite legends he beat for the title were past their prime when he faced them? Certainly not Lyoto, but in that big run when he beat the first 5 guys in his title reign or whatever... Shogun was coming off ANOTHER knee reconstruction.. Rampage barely got by Matt Hammil to face JJ.. etc

I do think people (not you though Wiggum) forget that a lot of the guys Fedor beat, who people look back on and say "he wasn't that good".. are being overlooked. Like, when Fedor beat Randleman, people think Randleman was way past it and a joke or something. But Randleman had just shockingly KO'd Mirko when Mirko was DESTROYING everyone. That made him the #1 contender, because he BEAT the #1 contender by knocking him out cold in the middle of his hot streak. Yet people who shit on Fedor as if "he only beat 2 good fighters ever" don't talk about this. People like Orcus drive me insane - people who literally exist solely to discredit fighters, argue, and generally be all around cunts. It's like.. why?

Even Ogawa, a "Japanese can", was still an undefeated Olympic silver medalist in Judo. Fedor arm barred him in a minute. What happened in his later career is a moot point because when Fedor fought him, he had not lost and many people felt like he may give problems to anyone considering his grappling skills.

Context is so important IMO. It's also easily forgotten throughout history and tends to lead to a revisionist look at fighters' legacies.. when it comes to new fans anyway. Some guy on the UG the other day literally said that Pettis has never beaten anyone good, and that Gil was never a good fighter worth celebrating. I wanted to kill him, lol. Finishing Gil was HUGE and still is. IMO that and the 2nd Bendo win are huge, HUGE hallmarks in Pettis' career. Even if Pettis never got to the point he was at before.. He still subbed two light weights that were the king of the crop, championship level, who had never been even close to submitted before.

Plus, the way Pettis beats people/stops people. He is amazing to watch. Will he go down as an all time great overall? It's certainly possible. But man it annoys me that ANY TIME an elite fighter loses.. you get morons coming out of the wood work saying "they were never that good, they never beat anybody"

Basically, I feel like new fans just go back and look at records on sherdog/wiki.. and they judge by that. They don't understand the context of when fights happened


Great thread with great viewpoints.

 

[Wild]

BJ Penn GOAT. Anyone that disagrees can shove an uncut Dole pineapple up their ass, while being beaten upside the head repeatedly with a can of SPAM.

 

[wiggum]

Lightweight is such a shark tank. I don't think we will see someone dominate that division to the level BJ did for a while. As for where Showtime would rank for all time lightweights, I think the best way to structure that discussion is through a tiered system. As I don't think you can really separate some guys to a meaningful degree.

Currently you'd have BJ in tier of his own, based on accomplishments. Let's call it A+ tier. Then I think in the tier below you'd have Henderson, Frankie, Gomi and Showtime. All 4 are fucking killers and held the title, but didn't have the sort of divisional dominance to get them onto BJ's level, so they would be A tier.

After that I'd probably have an A- tier, for Sean Sherk and RDA currently. Personally, I don't think the muscle shark was quite good enough to get onto the A tier, but he held the UFC title and so deserves to be above the B tier. Whereas RDA just won it, and has had a checkered career to the title. Let's see him defend it before moving him up.

Then in the B tier you'd have the perennial contenders, like Cowboy, Florian and anyone else that is/was just below the top guys, but never won the belt.

A+
BJ Penn

A
Frankie
Henderson
Gomi
Showtime

A-
RDA
Sean Sherk

B
Cowboy
Florian
The Pack

Great post. I generally agree, though I think I have to move most people down a notch for this reason: Benson Henderson only had two clear title victories. His win over Frankie is genuinely considered solid and his win over a lackluster Nate Diaz was undisputed. His wins over Gil and Frankie are so tainted I have a lot of trouble putting him in the same space as Gomi, Frankie, and Showtime.

I'd move Bendo to A- and everyone else down one notch. But otherwise, this is dead on.

 

[wiggum]

Wiggum, I just wanted to say, great posts in this thread. Your contributions are MUCH appreciated and I look forward to reading more.

I always enjoyed reading your stuff on that other forum, and thought you were one of the more knowledgeable, respectful people over there. Great to see you checking this place out and posting. Every post ITT is spot on. I agree with you 100% on the Jones thing too. Jones has destroyed an extremely elite level of competition

BUT, can you make the argument that most of the elite legends he beat for the title were past their prime when he faced them? Certainly not Lyoto, but in that big fun when he beat the first 5 guys in his title reign or whatever... Shogun was coming off ANOTHER knee reconstruction.. Rampage barely got by Matt Hammil to face JJ.. etc

I do think people (not you though Wiggum) forget that a lot of the guys Fedor beat, who people look back on and say "he wasn't that good".. are being overlooked. Like, when Fedor beat Randleman, people think Randleman was way past it and a joke or something. But Randleman had just shockingly KO'd Mirko when Mirko was DESTROYING everyone. That made him the #1 contender, because he BEAT the #1 contender by knocking him out cold in the middle of his hot streak. Yet people who shit on Fedor as if "he only beat 2 good fighters ever" don't talk about this. People like Orcus drive me insane - people who literally exist solely to discredit fighters, argue, and generally be all around cunts. It's like.. why?

Even Ogawa, a "Japanese can", was still an undefeated Olympic silver medalist in Judo. Fedor arm barred him in a minute. What happened in his later career is a moot point because when Fedor fought him, he had not lost and many people felt like he may give problems to anyone considering his grappling skills.

Context is so important IMO. It's also easily forgotten throughout history and tends to lead to a revisionist look at fighters' legacies.. when it comes to new fans anyway. Some guy on the UG the other day literally said that Pettis has never beaten anyone good, and that Gil was never a good fighter worth celebrating. I wanted to kill him, lol. Finishing Gil was HUGE and still is. IMO that and the 2nd Bendo win are huge, HUGE hallmarks in Pettis' career. Even if Pettis never got to the point he was at before.. He still subbed two light weights that were the king of the crop, championship level, who had never been even close to submitted before.

Plus, the way Pettis beats people/stops people. He is amazing to watch. Will he go down as an all time great overall? It's certainly possible. But man it annoys me that ANY TIME an elite fighter loses.. you get morons coming out of the wood work saying "they were never that good, they never beat anybody"

Basically, I feel like new fans just go back and look at records on sherdog/wiki.. and they judge by that. They don't understand the context of when fights happened


Great thread with great viewpoints.

Hey, thank, Galanis. I feel the same way about you. A neat thing here is when I put in the work of starting a thread, every time somebody replies, I know it will be somebody whose opinion I value. Not so at the other place. It'd be great if we could get people like wasa-b, OnePunchJD and some others over here.

Good point about Jones. I've written about that before. IMO, the top-tier fighters who he has beaten in their primes are Rashad, Lyoto, Glover, Gus, and DC. That's still a pretty damn good list of guys.

Dead on about Fedor and Showtime.

 

[Zeph]

Hey, thank, Galanis. I feel the same way about you. A neat thing here is when I put in the work of starting a thread, every time somebody replies, I know it will be somebody whose opinion I value. Not so at the other place. It'd be great if we could get people like wasa-b, OnePunchJD and some others over here.

Good point about Jones. I've written about that before. IMO, the top-tier fighters who he has beaten in their primes are Rashad, Lyoto, Glover, Gus, and DC. That's still a pretty damn good list of guys.

Dead on about Fedor and Showtime.

I've sent a friend request to Wasa-B, but he doesn't reply.

Great post. I generally agree, though I think I have to move most people down a notch for this reason: Benson Henderson only had two clear title victories. His win over Frankie is genuinely considered solid and his win over a lackluster Nate Diaz was undisputed. His wins over Gil and Frankie are so tainted I have a lot of trouble putting him in the same space as Gomi, Frankie, and Showtime.

I'd move Bendo to A- and everyone else down one notch. But otherwise, this is dead on.

GOAT tier
BJ Penn

A+
Frankie
Gomi
Showtime

A
Henderson

A-
RDA
Sean Sherk
Jens Pulver

B+
Cowboy
Florian
Melendez

B
The Pack

How about that? Can anyone think of anyone else that deserves to be ranked here. Obviously Nurmy will enter soon, but I think it is a little early to say just where yet.

 

[Greek777]

Hey, thank, Galanis. I feel the same way about you. A neat thing here is when I put in the work of starting a thread, every time somebody replies, I know it will be somebody whose opinion I value. Not so at the other place. It'd be great if we could get people like wasa-b, OnePunchJD and some others over here.

Good point about Jones. I've written about that before. IMO, the top-tier fighters who he has beaten in their primes are Rashad, Lyoto, Glover, Gus, and DC. That's still a pretty damn good list of guys.

Dead on about Fedor and Showtime.

Agreed. I have PMed Wasa-B twice about this place because I know his posts would be WAY more appreciated here.. but I think he is yet to sign up. That dude is awesome and I'd love to get him over here. Maybe you can PM him? He and I are cool so I thnk more than likely he just forgot.

Another UG poster I really enjoyed reading back a few years ago was whistleblower. He had some great shit. wrongaboutVitali is another who puts in effort to explain his viewpoints and make some really great posts. I'm gonna PM WasaB and Vitali now.. Maybe now that we have guys like Enson and more over and posting they'll be more inclined to check it out since we have grown, as opposed to being a newer board just starting out.

De Braco is someone who I am thrilled is here.. Dude posts AMAZING shit and has a crazy collection of events, books, etc.

Agreed 100% on Jones BTW.. that list alone is a murderer's row. All of those guys were like you said, in their prime, with long streaks going over solid guys. The DC win was GIGANTIC. EVERYONE, even Joey Oddessa, was putting cash on DC thinking he was the solution to Jones. We know how that went. Jones not only dominated him but was doing fucking blow and probably training half assed for the fight.. yet still went in there and won pretty handily after the midway point of the fight.

Now of course.. you get plenty of people saying "DC was never any good, he never beat anybody"... Typical MMA fans lol