Race discussion with Big.Thirsty

[megatherium]

good battle.

 

[sparkuri]

 

[1372]

 

[Disciplined Galt]

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[DFW4L]

going to sleep on this note:

In the next ten years if science proves climate change is not man made, will there still be a debate 12 years from now?

these are billion dollar industries (in this topics case the industry of Social Sciences), scientific consensus follows discovery by decades in most cases, and often never does

 

[megatherium]

We don't have to call it "race".

How about Bonkyschmepp?

Lets call it ethnicity with benefits.

 

[Leigh]

Yes, that happened and it was very flawed for the reason you mention, and with the advent of Western Social Sciences Race as a social construct was studied/documented and researched to such a massive extent the sciences, social and otherwise, almost unanimously developed the theory that race is only a social construct...

that premise has been obliterated in the last ten years by genetics...

Now we know race exists physically, which does not stop it from being an enormous social construct

So you should be able to provide the physical descriptions of a race.

 

[DFW4L]

So you should be able to provide the physical descriptions of a race.

You mean exclusive ones?

 

[Leigh]

He used a very compelling word in his response to me calling him out in being "strong minded".......he said he "can change his mind" if the argument and/or evidence is compelling".......he can, he doesn't say he will, he can....

Right, because I didn't use any definitive terms. If the evidence is irrefutable, I will change my stance.

Is that better?

 

[Leigh]

You mean exclusive ones?

Yes

 

[DFW4L]

Yes

lol, that was kind of a cunty trick ? on my part....

I can't, because boats and stuff...

get it?

 

[DFW4L]

sickle cell anaemia presents itself from sub saharan Africa through south Asia and into the northern Mediterranean

So do Africans.

(I do not know if sickle cell itself come exclusively out of Africa of course, I just mean a trait/mutation can only be isolated to one region of the world if transportation never existed)

 

[Leigh]

lol, that was kind of a cunty trick ? on my part....

I can't, because boats and stuff...

get it?

LOL ok

But back on topic, if race is physically real, you should be able to list some of the physical traits of a race. Can you?

This is really the crux of the debate. If you can, I'm sold. If you can't, your position looks pretty weak.

 

[DFW4L]

is race is physically real, you should be able to list some of the physical traits of a race. Can you?

its 2016, the races are all mixed up, there is no exclusivity amongst traits (mutations)...

again, boats and stuff, hell here in Hawaii we have insects that got here via eggs in bird shit in a birds colon that flew here, migration patterns are a MF'er, the brothers been banging our white women since Pangea

 

[Leigh]

its 2016, the races are all mixed up, there is no exclusivity amongst traits (mutations)...

again, boats and stuff, hell here in Hawaii we have insects that got here via eggs in bird shit in a birds colon that flew here, migration patterns are a MF'er, the brothers been banging our white women since Pangea

Ok. I don't want to sound rude and maybe I have a confirmation bias but I don't see anything you've posted that demonstrates race is physically real. You've posted that some researchers believe it is and that some diseases are prevalent among certain races, neither of which conclusively demonstrates your point.

When asked to list definitive physical traits of a race, you can't.

Surely you see my point? I can't be persuaded based on what you've posted so far.

 

[Lord Vutulaki]

its 2016, the races are all mixed up, there is no exclusivity amongst traits (mutations)...

again, boats and stuff, hell here in Hawaii we have insects that got here via eggs in bird shit in a birds colon that flew here, migration patterns are a MF'er, the brothers been banging our white women since Pangea

The out of Africa theory is a very solid one and one which Ill happily hang my hat on until the Bible is proven true.

So there goes your argument.

 

[Lord Vutulaki]

Here's a good way to explain race;

If humans were iPhones, which is a really good example, we would all be the same generation iPhone, from the same carrier, built in the same factory, with the same options. Our actual physical makeup is fairly uniform.

The differences are all in the programming. One user may download one set of apps, while another downloads an entirely different one. But, even then, they all have the same basic programming. These apps are the social and cultural parts of us.

 

[Robbie Hart]

Right, because I didn't use any definitive terms. If the evidence is irrefutable, I will change my stance.

Is that better?

Is that "irrefutable", subjective? Me thinks you'll find a way.......

 

[DFW4L]

The out of Africa theory is a very solid one and one which Ill happily hang my hat on until the Bible is proven true.

So there goes your argument.

ah yes, my argument is gone because you disagree with MRE and have a certain opinion of when OOF is dated to, well shit bro - you win, I'm only talking to Leigh now...

enjoy your victory mate!

 

[1031]

Ok, fair point. I should provide my position as well.

The idea of race was proposed well before the science of genetics and was based on appearance, when parts of the world had not been discovered by those creating the designations. It cannot possibly therefore be based on genetic differences.

There are average physical differences between races but this doesn't prove a physical difference between races. For example, west Africans have a higher incidence of ACTN3. West Africans happen to be black, so blacks on average are faster sprinters but being black in itself doesn't make someone a faster sprinter, the ACTN3 gene does.

Some black people have dark skin, some have lighter skin than Indians or even south Europeans. Some europeans have curly hair, some have epicanthal folds.

A race cannot be defined either physically or scientifically, only averages. Race isn't physically real.

So these "average differences," how can they be conveniently referred to?


I'm more in the camp of there being racial differences but see the value of your points...but this has all got me thinking/wondering if this is more about language or about science (and where do they diverge?).

Here's an aside that is kind of interesting to me and may be to you:
As you guys know, I'm a Canadian, living in Poland. Do you know how they refer to different dog breeds in Polish? "Rasa," or in English "Race." The exact same word in their language (and most likely in EVERY Slavic language) creates the same distinction in people and animals when it comes to being of a different "breed." This is a very old and established language group fwiw.

As I learn more of the language it becomes increasingly interesting to compare it to English. Language shapes how you think, it shapes how an entire society functions. What this does is challenge how I think of people, why aren't we like dogs in some senses? Dogs can cross-breed and so can we? Maybe we do have slightly different temperaments, is that really so hard to digest or accept? Is there something inherently offensive about such a suggestion?

Before any sensitive sissies get all pissy about this, I'm a bastard mutt and dealing with it.

Anyhow, I don't want to take your conversation off course.

 

[DFW4L]

The differences are all in the programming. One user may download one set of apps, while another downloads an entirely different one. But, even then, they all have the same basic programming. These apps are the social and cultural parts of us.

you just disagreed with one of the basic premises of the people Leigh is arguing against (genetics behavior influence), a marxist is going to throw water on you in 3...2....

(racist!)

 

[Robbie Hart]

So these "average differences," how can they be conveniently referred to?


I'm more in the camp of there being racial differences but see the value of your points...but this has all got me thinking/wondering if this is more about language or about science (and where do they diverge?).

Here's an aside that is kind of interesting to me and may be to you:
As you guys know, I'm a Canadian, living in Poland. Do you know how they refer to different dog breeds in Polish? "Rasa," or in English "Race." The exact same word in their language (and most likely in EVERY Slavic language) creates the same distinction in people and animals when it comes to being of a different "breed." This is a very old and established language group fwiw.

As I learn more of the language it becomes increasingly interesting to compare it to English. Language shapes how you think, it shapes how an entire society functions. What this does is challenge how I think of people, why aren't we like dogs in some senses? Dogs can cross-breed and so can we? Maybe we do have slightly different temperaments, is that really so hard to digest or accept? Is there something inherently offensive about such a suggestion?

Before any sensitive sissies get all pissy about this, I'm a bastard mutt and dealing with it.

Anyhow, I don't want to take your conversation off course.

Enter the dragon

 

[Lord Vutulaki]

@Big.Thirsty youre a smart dude, Im not saying this to win you over for the purpose of this argument (

ah yes, my argument is gone because you disagree with MRE and have a certain opinion of when OOF is dated to, well shit bro - you win, I'm only talking to Leigh now...

enjoy your victory mate!

FFS I was simply using your diversity argument against you, dont blame me for your poor choice of argument.

Show me (or Leigh since youre only talking to him now) how we can scientifically delineate whichever racial groups there are you believe in.

All Negroes have?

All Mongloids have?

All Caucasians have?

 

[DFW4L]

As you guys know, I'm a Canadian, living in Poland. Do you know how they refer to different dog breeds in Polish? "Rasa," or in English "Race." The exact same word in their language (and most likely in EVERY Slavic language) creates the same distinction in people and animals when it comes to being of a different "breed." This is a very old and established language group fwiw.

As I learn more of the language it becomes increasingly interesting to compare it to English. Language shapes how you think, it shapes how an entire society functions. What this does is challenge how I think of people, why aren't we like dogs in some senses? Dogs can cross-breed and so can we? Maybe we do have slightly different temperaments, is that really so hard to digest or accept? Is there something inherently offensive about such a suggestion?

Dog breeds are a social construct

 

[1031]

Dog breeds are a social construct

That's funny and all but I do kind of see what Leigh means....maybe there are more breeds of human than we are admitting to? Maybe it's all cosmetic? Maybe we have a lot to learn? Maybe everything is a fucking social construct once we apply language? I honestly have no firm grasp of it all.