Race discussion with Big.Thirsty

[Lord Vutulaki]

my point is if transportation never existed, climate change never caused migration it would be rather easy to explain the differences in various race groups

Yeah native Britons teleported themselves from modern day Senegal to the British Isles, same with Eskimos, aboriginals, haoles et al.

Im trying to battle your lack of seriousness and peak hour Sydney traffic right now. FML

 

[Leigh]

How can we people, in the English language, conveniently refer to groups of people who display/have inherited/possess these identifying average differences?

Does this question make sense to anyone?

Why do you need to conveniently label a group? But to answer your question, you can't really, because not all members of these races display these average differences. Eg not all europeans have fair skin.

 

[KWingJitsu]

That's funny and all but I do kind of see what Leigh means....maybe there are more breeds of human than we are admitting to? Maybe it's all cosmetic? Maybe we have a lot to learn? Maybe everything is a fucking social construct once we apply language? I honestly have no firm grasp of it all.

 

[DFW4L]

I don't need to believe race is physically real to acknowledge there are average differences between them.

'them' what?

Do you believe that a race can be defined by the average physical characteristics?

not conclusively, no, but a sharp forensic anthropologist can get a high % right, a lower % in somewhere like the Mediterranean compared to New Guinea for example, hundreds of thousands of years of transportation clouds the ability to differentiate

 

[1031]

Why do you need to conveniently label a group? But to answer your question, you can't really, because not all members of these races display these average differences. Eg not all europeans have fair skin.

Well you know Leigh, this whole "communication" thing works better when it's convenient. But accuracy shouldn't be forsaken for convenience.
So should we have:

• Caucasian type: Indigenous Northern- does well in frigid conditions-easy to manipulate via guilt (see Germany now and also 70 years ago).
• Caucasian type: Indigenous Northern- does poorly in damp conditions but still easy to manipulate via guilt.
• Caucasian type: South Western- does well in the heat and stylish as fuck

This is clearly just goofy but it seems like (and I could be misinterpreting you here) you're suggesting race is not a real thing and one of the reasons for that is the existence of outliers.
I'm sure I've misinterpreted what you're saying because it doesn't make sense to ignore commonalities just because outliers exist.


edit* It's obvious we need MORE races. More division and more accuracy. And the mutts- we need a term too. I can be a Northern White Curr, I like the sound of it tbh.

 

[1372]

View: https://youtu.be/5FjWe31S_0g

 

[1031]

It's just the same skeleton with different labels underneath. Sexuality and religion play no part in determining the skeletal structure. Someone could make a meme with different skeletons of varying genders, heights, and proportions and then what?

 

[Leigh]

'them' what?

Commonly recognised racial designations.

not conclusively, no, but a sharp forensic anthropologist can get a high % right, a lower % in somewhere like the Mediterranean compared to New Guinea for example, hundreds of thousands of years of transportation clouds the ability to differentiate

Sure. That doesn't mean race is real. It could be explained by someone sharing the same genes as some from a Spanish village. We know that the test subject has genes that are shared by people from Poble Espanyol, therefore he is European. That doesn't mean all Europeans share genetic traits.

 

[Leigh]

It's just the same skeleton with different labels underneath. Sexuality and religion play no part in determining the skeletal structure. Someone could make a meme with different skeletons of varying genders, heights, and proportions and then what?

Well that's the point. Height and gender are real physical differences. Sexuality, religion and race are not.

 

[KWingJitsu]

It's just the same skeleton with different labels underneath. Sexuality and religion play no part in determining the skeletal structure. Someone could make a meme with different skeletons of varying genders, heights, and proportions and then what?

Relax, man.
Focus on the message, not the skeletons.

 

[1031]

Relax, man.
Focus on the message, not the skeletons.

But the message is based on the image. I agree with the message but it's like you're insinuating that any discussion of racial differences or even the existence of "race" is against humanity.

 

[1372]

Relax, man.
Focus on the message, not the skeletons..

So much thought...Im typing one fingered one eyed.

 

[1372]

But the message is based on the image. I agree with the message but it's like you're insinuating that any discussion of racial differences or even the existence of "race" is against humanity.

Hey

What Ya drinking today you Polish fucker?

<3

 

[1031]

Well that's the point. Height and gender are real physical differences. Sexuality, religion and race are not.

Can anthropologists look at skeletons and skulls and reconstruct what someone looked like?
To what degree of specificity can one's "race" (I'm using this word because we seem to commonly understand it to mean something here) be determined via skeletal remains?
Answer: I have no idea.

*edit* Can anyone answer this?

 

[1372]

Much love @KWingJitsu

Whore.

 

[1031]

Hey

What Ya drinking today you Polish fucker?

<3

I'm not Polish but I am a fucker....a drink is a good idea- cheers

 

[DFW4L]

We are at page 5 and I appreciate the conversation very much, here is where I see your position at currently...

Race is only a social construct, it does not physically exist yet you acknowledge average physical differences amongst races (which are only a social construct)...

Unless you changed your opinion somewhere along the way, I don't understand.

I don't need to believe race is physically real to acknowledge there are average differences between them.

n this statement I see the second half disputing the first half, there is nothing to differentiate between if you disbelief in the physical existence of 'them' there can be no difference they are a social construct

I believe your argument is now suffering from dualism it did not contain at the outset

...and you seem to have a thing for name dropping logical fallacies

 

[KWingJitsu]

But the message is based on the image. I agree with the message but it's like you're insinuating that any discussion of racial differences or even the existence of "race" is against humanity.

Any insinuation is in your head. Like I said focus on the message.
It's like a finger pointing a way to the moon....... don't focus on the finger yadda yadda....

 

[1372]

I'm not Polish but I am a fucker....a drink is a good idea- cheers

Ahhhh....I am a dumb fuck.

Where you from mate? Don't matter either way to me...Curious though.

 

[Leigh]

We are at page 5 and I appreciate the conversation very much, here is where I see your position at currently...

Race is only a social construct, it does not physically exist yet you acknowledge average physical differences amongst races (which are only a social construct)...

Unless you changed your opinion somewhere along the way, I don't understand.

I don't need to believe race is physically real to acknowledge there are average differences between them.

n this statement I see the second half disputing the first half, there is nothing to differentiate between if you disbelief in the physical existence of 'them' there can be no difference they are a social construct

I believe your argument is now suffering from dualism it did not contain at the outset

...and you seem to have a thing for name dropping logical fallacies

The logical fallacy name dropping is simply to save time explaining the logical fallacy.

My position may seem conflicting and I think that is where we disagree. Allow me to give some examples to explain.

East Asians are, on average, shorter than Europeans. This is an average difference between the races. However, we cannot define a race by height; some East Asians are very tall and some Europeans are short.

We could take a random group of people from around the world and call it group A. We could do the same again and call it group B. Group A could be, on average, taller than group B, with lighter skin and a higher incidence of blue eyes. This does not mean group A is a race; it would have Africans, Europeans, Asians, Arabs, Australians etc.

The average physical traits of a group cannot be used to physically define the group.

 

[1031]

Ahhhh....I am a dumb fuck.

Where you from mate? Don't matter either way to me...Curious though.

Born in Saskatchewan. Ethnically: Euroclusterfuck

 

[1031]

Any insinuation is in your head. Like I said focus on the message.
It's like a finger pointing a way to the moon....... don't focus on the finger yadda yadda....

Well actually everything I perceive is in my head but fine, what was the point of your meme? I don't understand so maybe you can explain it?

 

[1372]

Born in Saskatchewan. Ethnically: Euroclusterfuck

Now I see said the blind man.

Both ethnically fucked.

 

[Leigh]

Can anthropologists look at skeletons and skulls and reconstruct what someone looked like?
To what degree of specificity can one's "race" (I'm using this word because we seem to commonly understand it to mean something here) be determined via skeletal remains?
Answer: I have no idea.

*edit* Can anyone answer this?

They can only guess, based on averages.

If genetic material is available, they could determine who else shares the same genes and then, by deduction, designate them as the same race.

This is, of course, very different to identifying a "black gene".

 

[DFW4L]

My position may seem conflicting and I think that is where we disagree....

The average physical traits of a group cannot be used to physically define the group

I agree first line. On the second line I would add 'all members of the group'. The qualifier is remembering what average means.

Leroy is tall because he is Black = can be wrong
Jin Yu is short because he is Asian = can be wrong
Leroy is taller than Jin Yu because of their races = most often correct

I disagree that Race is only a social construct, I believe it is a physical construct also (which includes the brain of course)...

...there is a huge (primary) mindset amongst social scientists that race can never be considered more than a social construct, they are terrified of this and will fight this point to the death, because once race is accepted as physical then the brain and behavior is included and that opens up a whole realm of race based behavior judgements (fuel for those inclined to do so).

This is social science dogma at its peak (that race can never be considered anything more than a social construct), people committed to hard science, who are unconcerned with the potential social science impact of race being considered physical, have imo proven race is physical through genetics, yet this will likely never be widely accepted in the social sciences world (and is currently in a state of outright ridicule)

av·er·age
ˈav(ə)rij/
noun

1. 1.
   a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data