General Thoughts on Georgia shooting?

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T

The Big Guy

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who initiated lethal force in the case we're discussing?
The heros defending against the criminal trying to disarm them. He initiated the whole incident by trying to steal people's property.

If he was standing with his hands up it would be different. But he charged them like the dumbfuck he was.
 

ThatOneDude

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The heros defending against the criminal trying to disarm them. He initiated the whole incident by trying to steal people's property.

If he was standing with his hands up it would be different. But he charged them like the dumbfuck he was.
But do we have anyone who saw him and identified him as the one they saw in the house?
 
T

The Big Guy

Guest
what matters is what was known to the killers when they attempted to enact a citizens arrest. That will determine if the citizens arrest was lawful, and if it wasn't, your heroes go to jail.

the other thing that matters is if the use of force was justified by the circumstances. That's a little fuzzier, but the video is more than "not a good look". They rolled up on a guy point firearms at him, it won't matter if the firearm was illegal, because they're attempt to stop him had nothing to do with them suspecting him of being a felon in possession...but none of that matters if the citizens arrest wasn't lawful.
They didnt roll up to shit are you blind. They were parked and he ran from behind them and attacked them. Another car was following him and recording him running from justice.

He came from behind them. How is that a chase? They probably tried to block the exit to the neighborhood but arbery was determined to continue his crime spree
 
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T

The Big Guy

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But do we have anyone who saw him and identified him as the one they saw in the house?
The guy on the phone with the police who gave an exact description of the man who attacked the people in the truck moments later.
 

kneeblock

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This guy tried to take a shotgun from an armed citizen who was acting within legal limits trying to detain a suspected criminal. A criminal who was already called into police by a different witness. A man with a history of theft and weapons offenses

Not the same your right. But another clean shoot that everyones crying about.

They should be praised
There isn't a single circumstance where someone should be praised for killing someone that didn't have to die. The idea that killing ever warrants praise is really insane and speaks to an impulse that we can reasonably be the arbiters of whether people truly deserve to die. You're literally sitting on this MMA forum typing that a guy getting shot and killed was justifiable because someone thought he was a burglar. You said above that these guys were heroes and more people should cheer them on because they stood up for their neighborhood. How does two armed men chasing an unarmed man and ultimately killing him equal heroism? Why even bother with the rule of law? Why are they "citizens" and he's not even human, just a "criminal" in your words?

You cite the racialization of this story in news media, but you completely misstate the narrative. Most of the narrative has been why did this guy have to die and why was nothing done about it? Various pundits have opined that race played a role because race seems to have played a role in a number of shootings in recent years, though I would argue it's more of a class issue with race often intersecting, predisposing black victims to seem more dangerous than they actually are. And here you are rehearsing literally every argument. In fact, in this thread it is only you who is racializing the narrative, going even so far as to say where is white justice and where is white peace, when in every single case you cite, the perpetrators have been arrested and convicted of murder, unlike in this case. You say you're fed up and talk about "clean shoots" as if you're on the white team and black people are on the black team and that is in itself the essence of racism. You talk about crime in "black neighborhoods" as if neighborhoods just organically become black rather than being poor neighborhoods with black people disproportionately represented among the poor and often pushed there. You are reacting to the outrage of black people over the convergence between being born into these conditions and seeing other black people summarily executed on video with no legal consequences by saying essentially that he was worthy of nothing but death. Black people have said nothing more than that no, he deserved to live. That his life actually mattered. It's taken months of people in South Georgia advocating and pushing the DA to do more and pushing on social media and elsewhere to get the story picked up by mainstream media and really it took the video being put into wide circulation, which obviously wasn't an accident.

You can be justifiably mad at the media for over-amplifying a race first narrative, but as a Black person, I can tell you it's hard not to look at that video and have it not just slot into a long story with all the other videos we've seen of unarmed Black men being met with lethal force and nothing happening. In my personal view, fatal encounters are complicated and always tragic, for the dead and the living. No one should ever have to die for something they're suspected of doing. No one should ever be made to fear for their life by being confronted with lethal force unless they're attempting to do serious harm to someone else. This isn't a "clean shoot," or a "great job," it's a tragedy, and an avoidable one at that.
 

ThatOneDude

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The guy on the phone with the police who gave an exact description of the man who attacked the people in the truck moments later.
So he saw the whole incident from start to finish? Because if so I want to hear what that guy has to say.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
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They didnt roll up to shit are you blind. They were parked and he ran from behind them and attacked them. Another car was following him and recording him running from justice.

He came from behind them. How is that a chase? They probably tried to block the exit to the neighborhood but jamal was determined to continue his crime spree
the reason the person turned on their video camera was because a guy was standing in the back of a truck pointing a gun at a guy running down the road. They were in front of him in the first frame of video, but that wasn't the first frame of their engagement.
 

ThatOneDude

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the reason the person turned on their video camera was because a guy was standing in the back of a truck pointing a gun at a guy running down the road. They were in front of him in the first frame of video, but that wasn't the first frame of their engagement.
Do we know thats why?
 

Filthy

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So he saw the whole incident from start to finish? Because if so I want to hear what that guy has to say.
LoL.

no. if that was the case we wouldn't be having this discussion. An eyewitness didn't yell "Stop! Thief!"
 

ThatOneDude

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LoL.

no. if that was the case we wouldn't be having this discussion. An eyewitness didn't yell "Stop! Thief!"
Well we are trying to hash out what the actual facts are in this case and we can't have fake new's ruining the TMMAC judiciary process.
 
T

The Big Guy

Guest
There isn't a single circumstance where someone should be praised for killing someone that didn't have to die. The idea that killing ever warrants praise is really insane and speaks to an impulse that we can reasonably be the arbiters of whether people truly deserve to die. You're literally sitting on this MMA forum typing that a guy getting shot and killed was justifiable because someone thought he was a burglar. You said above that these guys were heroes and more people should cheer them on because they stood up for their neighborhood. How does two armed men chasing an unarmed man and ultimately killing him equal heroism? Why even bother with the rule of law? Why are they "citizens" and he's not even human, just a "criminal" in your words?

You cite the racialization of this story in news media, but you completely misstate the narrative. Most of the narrative has been why did this guy have to die and why was nothing done about it? Various pundits have opined that race played a role because race seems to have played a role in a number of shootings in recent years, though I would argue it's more of a class issue with race often intersecting, predisposing black victims to seem more dangerous than they actually are. And here you are rehearsing literally every argument. In fact, in this thread it is only you who is racializing the narrative, going even so far as to say where is white justice and where is white peace, when in every single case you cite, the perpetrators have been arrested and convicted of murder, unlike in this case. You say you're fed up and talk about "clean shoots" as if you're on the white team and black people are on the black team and that is in itself the essence of racism. You talk about crime in "black neighborhoods" as if neighborhoods just organically become black rather than being poor neighborhoods with black people disproportionately represented among the poor and often pushed there. You are reacting to the outrage of black people over the convergence between being born into these conditions and seeing other black people summarily executed on video with no legal consequences by saying essentially that he was worthy of nothing but death. Black people have said nothing more than that no, he deserved to live. That his life actually mattered. It's taken months of people in South Georgia advocating and pushing the DA to do more and pushing on social media and elsewhere to get the story picked up by mainstream media and really it took the video being put into wide circulation, which obviously wasn't an accident.

You can be justifiably mad at the media for over-amplifying a race first narrative, but as a Black person, I can tell you it's hard not to look at that video and have it not just slot into a long story with all the other videos we've seen of unarmed Black men being met with lethal force and nothing happening. In my personal view, fatal encounters are complicated and always tragic, for the dead and the living. No one should ever have to die for something they're suspected of doing. No one should ever be made to fear for their life by being confronted with lethal force unless they're attempting to do serious harm to someone else. This isn't a "clean shoot," or a "great job," it's a tragedy, and an avoidable one at that.
I agree with alot of your points. But you can make a million excuses for black crime but the facts remain the same. I'm not here to discuss why they commit crime at such a high rate. But to debate this particular case.

He wasn't killed for burglary. He tried to take a gun from them and they shot him.

Again. He ran towards them. I never saw them chase anyone, anywhere, for any length of distance. I did see him run about 50ft and either punch or grab a old man.
Agree? Show me where they chased him?

Even if they did chase him, he was suspected of a crime which allows a citizens arrest under georgia law. What's up for debate was whether they should have shot him

They didnt just shoot him on the sidewalk from 10 feet. I would call for their heads immediately if that was the case. They shot him while he was trying to take a shotgun. When people fight over a gun usually someone's getting shot. I would prefer to see him prosecuted but he chose to go out with violence.

If he took the shotgun and killed them would we even hear about this? Would their be a huge outcry? I doubt it.
 

Filthy

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Jun 28, 2016
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Do we know thats why?
that was the news report.
Ahmaud Arbery video: Who shot the Georgia black man? What to know

"Gregory McMichael said he was in his front yard when he spotted Arbery. He told police that he and his adult son, Travis, thought the man matched someone caught on a security camera committing a recent break-in in the neighborhood, according to the police report.

He and his son grabbed their guns from inside the house because they "didn't know if the male was armed or not," according to the police report. The father and son then got in their truck and began chasing Arbery.

Gregory McMichael said Travis got out of the truck with a shotgun and that Arbery "began to violently attack" him and "the two men then started fighting over the shotgun," the police report said. Gregory McMichael said his son fired two shots, according to the report.

The police report says Gregory McMichael turned Arbery onto his back to see if he was armed – but the report doesn’t say whether he had a weapon or not.

McMichael did not tell police how or when William Bryan became involved in the incident or why he recorded it on video. Bryan is listed on the report as a witness."
 

Filthy

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Even if they did chase him, he was suspected of a crime which allows a citizens arrest under georgia law. What's up for debate was whether they should have shot him
if they didn't have immediate knowledge of the crime, or were not instructed by law enforcement to detain the person, it's not a lawful citizens arrest under Georgia law
 
T

The Big Guy

Guest
the reason the person turned on their video camera was because a guy was standing in the back of a truck pointing a gun at a guy running down the road. They were in front of him in the first frame of video, but that wasn't the first frame of their engagement.
Wheres you proof that's why he videotaped? Or did you just assume that?

I can assume he was following the suspect to help police apprehend him. I can assume he was the guy who initially called police.

But it means fuckall
 

mysticmac

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This isn't a black vs white thing. The SJWs and media are making it that.

There are witnesses that saw a young black man robbing a number of houses recently, someone saw a young black man coming out of a house that was under construction, and this young black man was seen running down the street dressed like the guy that was seen coming out of the house.

As a result, the residents in that neighborhood armed themselves (which makes sense given they don't know if he is armed) and gave chase. Once they approached him, they told him to stop so they could talk to him. He responded by running at one of them and trying to grab a gun. This guy was the guy that initiated the physical confrontation. On top of that, he did so by trying to gain access to a gun. When you charge someone and try to take their gun, you should expect to get shot.

You can argue about whether or not a citizens arrest should be legal, but it is there so the residents were not doing anything wrong by approaching him. The video starts with the guy rushing the resident, so we don't know if the residents rode up pointing a gun at him or if they simply had their guns in hand and attempted to talk to him.

All we know from the video is that he rushed them and tried to take their gun. That is an incredibly stupid thing to do, and you should expect to get shot if you try to do that.

The only other things we know are the criminal past of the guy that died and the previous public service of the guy with the shotgun. Everything else I've read is either citing a witness statement or the opinions of people who weren't there.
 

mysticmac

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the reason the person turned on their video camera was because a guy was standing in the back of a truck pointing a gun at a guy running down the road.
How do you know that? How do you know the cameraman wasn't part of the group chasing the guy down? I haven't seen anything about a statement from the cameraman.
 

kneeblock

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I agree with alot of your points. But you can make a million excuses for black crime but the facts remain the same. I'm not here to discuss why they commit crime at such a high rate. But to debate this particular case.

He wasn't killed for burglary. He tried to take a gun from them and they shot him.

Again. He ran towards them. I never saw them chase anyone, anywhere, for any length of distance. I did see him run about 50ft and either punch or grab a old man.
Agree? Show me where they chased him?

Even if they did chase him, he was suspected of a crime which allows a citizens arrest under georgia law. What's up for debate was whether they should have shot him

They didnt just shoot him on the sidewalk from 10 feet. I would call for their heads immediately if that was the case. They shot him while he was trying to take a shotgun. When people fight over a gun usually someone's getting shot. I would prefer to see him prosecuted but he chose to go out with violence.

If he took the shotgun and killed them would we even hear about this? Would their be a huge outcry? I doubt it.
What I'm trying to put across to you is that they initiated the encounter by pursuing a guy with guns. As I know you know, if you carry a gun, you have to be prepared to use it. It's reasonable to believe that if you use it, you will kill someone. Much like with the Zimmerman case, all they had to do was stay in their vehicle. If they believed he was a threat, they should have called it in and followed from a safe distance, as any person trying to keep their neighborhood nominally safe knows.

Bringing in the laws of Georgia over citizens arrest and reasonable suspicion is useful for explaining why they may not have been charged with homicide back in February when this happened, but it has no bearing on the question of how or why Ahmaud Arbery deserved to be exposed to a life or death situation and whether he deserved to die. Further, even though the law may allow citizens arrest, there is no law that delineates how or whether a citizen has to comply with another citizen trying to arrest them. It was a situation that got out of hand quickly and there's no evidence to suggest it had to ever escalate to the level it did. No one got what they deserved here and I doubt the shooters themselves feel much like heroes unless they're psychopaths.

If he had taken the gun and killed them, you can bet he'd be in prison or would have been hounded. I say this from experience. A friend of my family who's also black killed a white man who came onto his property threatening violence several years ago with a legally owned firearm. It took awhile but he was ultimately exonerated, but not in court. He had his sentence commuted by the governor after being convicted. Still the whites in my community hounded him daily with threats and ultimately succeeded in getting him let go from any job he got and driven out of the area. He relocated and had to try to put his life back together, albeit with an arrest record. They still write articles about the incident to this day and letters always come pouring in calling him the worst kind of scum every time. It ruined him and his family and was a terrible nightmare for all involved. These things should never be celebrated. They're awful.
 
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mysticmac

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mysticmac

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What I'm trying to put across to you is that they initiated the encounter by pursuing a guy with guns. As I know you know, if you carry a gun, you have to be prepared to use it. It's reasonable to believe that if you use it, you will kill someone. Much like with the Zimmerman case, all they had to do was stay in their vehicle. If they believed he was a threat, they should have called it in and followed from a safe distance, as any person trying to keep their neighborhood nominally safe knows.
They could have followed from a safe distance, or he could have just kept running away from their stopped truck. Just like they didn't have to confront him, he didn't have to attack them. He was shot because he attacked them and tried to gain access to their gun.

From what the video shows and the assessment of the DAs, they acted within the limits of the law. He did not. He did something that would logically get anyone shot.
 
T

The Big Guy

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What I'm trying to put across to you is that they initiated the encounter by pursuing a guy with guns.
They did initate the encounter to stop suspected burglar from escaping. That is legal in georgia. Whether anyone like it or not. But he multiplied the danger with the struggle over the gun. He took a tense situation to a whole new level by trying to take a firearm from a former cop, who we can reasonably assume has trained to never let a suspect disarm him. Whether arbery knew he was a former cop or not is irrelevant. If someone pulls a knife on me from 20 feet it's not a great situation. Now if I rush towards them to disarm them I've taken it to a physical level and it's much more likely somebody is getting cut.
the question of how or why Ahmaud Arbery deserved to be exposed to a life or death situation and whether he deserved to die.
I dont believe them following or stopping him put anyone in a life or death situation. Once he initiated a fight for the gun it became a life or death situation for everyone involved.

Also I feel sorry for your friend. Nobody should have to retreat on their own property. These two men will have this haunt them forever regardless of the outcome.

So I do agree with your point it's a tragedy that could have been avoided. But we differ on how. You think no citizens arrest should have been performed or at least not in the way it was. Unfortunately I believe this all started with arbery committing burglary and ended when he tried to disarm a former cop performing a citizens arrest.
 

mysticmac

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He took a tense situation to a whole new level by trying to take a firearm from a former cop, who we can reasonably assume has trained to never let a suspect disarm him.
Actually, the former cop is the guy in the back of the truck. The shotgun guy is that guy's son. At least according to that USA Today article linked to on this page of this thread.