General Corona virus updates

[Zeph]

I'm responding to someones loaded commentary to politicize and give cause to a result without evidence. I view this time of headline rewriting on twitter, reddit, etc etc as an example of the barrier to real communication and information spread on the internet. It instead is a microcosm of the toxic fracturing that occurs and it should be named and rejected repeatedly.

Ever wonder why the top comment on reddit is telling the OP they are morons with a bunch of evidence why? Because this is a pervasive misinformation problem that now has an echo chamber through these sites to launch it to the tops of social media. And 99% don't read the article. Just the headline.

I'm not sure what top comment you are referring to.

Sure. I've hardly been shy in my own agreement for a more coordinated response across the board. You and I can talk about the best response all day. The entirety of the response to COVID19 including a vaccine should have such a response.

But staying on topic. That isn't what she's saying.
There is not evidence for-profit medicine lead us to this point anymore than if we had a socialized system. Tests are still purchased, authorized, etc. The best evidence is that the urgency to remove typical FDA barriers probably lead us here. Beyond that, I'm not sure where "here" is yet. Have you looked at other countries' testing fidelity? (I tried after your post, its almost impossible to find consistent non-USA based data when searching google in English) Are other testing modalities the same or different than what we rolled out one month into this? It isn't even clear to me that other antibody tests throughout the world match their stated sensitivity and specificity. It's just clear to me that our self-policiing apparatus is doing good day in reviewing and publicizing our test accuracy. That recent German town that had the parade outbreak and said 14% of the town had been positive recently had their testing criticized as the results of the antibody test were not what the German manufacturer said they were.

So yeah, Manhatten all day long. But her added accusation and commentary is still bunk.

I think you're ignoring power structures within society. A strong for-profit medical system has a lot influence on policy and essentially has regulatory capture within the U.S. It is their choice by virture of positioning the 'correct' people into positions of power to make these decisions. A socialized system would see their power limited and such their ability to manuerve the right people into those positions diminished. A socialized system isn't immune to these problems, just look at the U.K., but it does limit them due to incentive within the industry being about care first rather than making money.

As for other countries responses I don't think that's extremely relevant when specifically talking about a situation within the U.S. system. Being the best of a bad bunch is still undesirable, for example, and one country's propsensity for producing bad tests isn't dependent on anothers.

 

[jason73]

 

[Sheepdog]

Lets talk that

Options
1> Excess deaths are under-counted COVID19
2> Lockdown is causing excess death and killing people

What other hypothetsis can explain this?

Number one is the prevailing wisdom. But of course it could be something else.





Would need to analyuze the testing strategy of various states and see why you have so many COVID19 deaths attributed or not attributed to those excess deaths in various states. That would further solidify the argument that these are nearly all COVID19.

There will be a relationship between low testing and a low confirmed covid-to-excess deaths percentage, but probably only in low testing to high positive and death areas. Obviously, if an area is well on top of the spread, it will catch more covid deaths and have less excess deaths.

I do think people are needlessly overcomplicating what will eventually be a relatively simple, imperfect but pretty common sensicsl exercise. Once we have data on a global scale, we will be able to have a wide array of inputs and be able to pretty much tell which areas were just under-counting the shit out of their covid deaths. We will be able to account for increased suicides and decreased road deaths etc. to an extent and look for discrepancies.

It is pretty sobering that in all liklihood, the real US death toll for example is probably already close 100,000 and possibly above it. What's even fucked up though is that people using this estimate method vs confirmed covid deaths.

Let's use deliberately inflated estimates (rightly), but compare them to non-adjusted real data and then accuse the real data of being an over-count. Ridiculous.

Comparing COVID-19 Deaths to Flu Deaths Is like Comparing Apples to Oranges

 

[ThatOneDude]

Why can't you do all those things stoned as fuck?

 

[silentsinger]

They were a bunch of dummies with that funeral. Boat loads of them and no physical distancing in sight. Selfish gits.

 

[Deleted member 1]

I think you're ignoring power structures within society. A strong for-profit medical system has a lot influence on policy and essentially has regulatory capture within the U.S. It is their choice by virture of positioning the 'correct' people into positions of power to make these decisions

That's a perfectly fair point and one I think I agree with.
But there isn't evidence that that's what happened here in our testing.

As for other countries responses I don't think that's extremely relevant when specifically talking about a situation within the U.S. system. Being the best of a bad bunch is still undesirable, for example, and one country's propsensity for producing bad tests isn't dependent on anothers.

It's extremely relevant because your Twitter commentary posted suggests that we should not have rushed these tests to market, but instead a socialized medicine and more regulation would have been the right answer. what evidence is there to support that or to the contrary? Looking at what socialized medicine and regulatory countries did.
One terrific piece of evidence undermining her entire commentary would be the reality that our testing is exactly in the same ballpark as other countries. That the limiting factor here is a new disease and time, not a particular nationalized or private company test creation process.
Again, this is not a conversation about larger preferences and theories. But responding to a specific accusation that the Trump administration removed regulation causing test to be worse than they would be otherwise. This ignores the reality of the situation and also does not actually describe the linked article, and finally does not have the backing that our testing modalities are worse than would be had otherwise. If you find something that shows lots of socialized medicine countries who resulted in much better testing than we have, that was suggest she is right. But again, no evidence. Just hanging on to a tangentially related article

 

[silentsinger]

How often are we all getting dressed? If I don't have to go out anywhere I really don't bother, far more comfy...seems pointless. Some ABC news anchor airing from home just got caught out with a suit jacket, button up shirt etc but wearing short shorts. At most, I put on PJs but that's about it...saves on laundry consumption too.

 

[Zeph]

That's a perfectly fair point and one I think I agree with.
But there isn't evidence that that's what happened here in our testing.

Do we really have to troll through political donations and lobbiest rovolving door appointments, or can we just say that the system is designed to replicate itself through the promotion of individuals that share the same ideals/goals, and as such there is no direct need for evidence in this case, as such evidence is overwhelming in other cases that operating under the assumption it is here is the only correct course and that to assume innocence is at best niave and at worst deliberately ignorant.

It's extremely relevant because your Twitter commentary posted suggests that we should not have rushed these tests to market, but instead a socialized medicine and more regulation would have been the right answer. what evidence is there to support that or to the contrary? Looking at what socialized medicine and regulatory countries did.
One terrific piece of evidence undermining her entire commentary would be the reality that our testing is exactly in the same ballpark as other countries. That the limiting factor here is a new disease and time, not a particular nationalized or private company test creation process.
Again, this is not a conversation about larger preferences and theories. But responding to a specific accusation that the Trump administration removed regulation causing test to be worse than they would be otherwise. This ignores the reality of the situation and also does not actually describe the linked article, and finally does not have the backing that our testing modalities are worse than would be had otherwise. If you find something that shows lots of socialized medicine countries who resulted in much better testing than we have, that was suggest she is right. But again, no evidence. Just hanging on to a tangentially related article

I'm not sure how your testing reality has been proven to be exactly in the same ballpark as other countries. How many of those countries have the same resources to bring to bear to create tests, not many if any. Lets for sake of argument say that Germany does, you've pointed to one situation of faulty tests from a German manufacturer, whereas the study of U.S. tests says that most tests produced by different manufacturers have been faulty.

As I've said previously there isn't just one response to procuring the tests, yet, the free market is the response most countries have used, even Germany - to my knowledge. Now that is an ideological choice for the most part, but it also puts the comparison with other systems on shaky ground that if they are following similar protocols why would it be different without a for-profit system? It could be different because the political realities become broader making options such as a 'manhatten project' type approach possible. That other countries have chosen not to do so doesn't mean that it would not be possible within the American context if there was the political will. Just like it would be possible in other countries, but perhaps less efficient due to different resource avaiabilities. The regulatory capture previously discussed prevents other options because the people positioned to be in charge of things like this can't see things beyond advancing a capitalist agenda. It will always be about making money for someone through private contracts.

 

[Rambo John J]

The controversial experiments and Wuhan lab suspected of starting the coronavirus pandemic

"The report, dated March 27 and corroborated by two U.S. officials, reveals that U.S. intelligence revised its January assessment in which it "judged that the outbreak probably occurred naturally" to now include the possibility that the new coronavirus emerged "accidentally" due to "unsafe laboratory practices""

Who still thinks this didn't originate in the lab right nearby the wet market?

 

[Rambo John J]

View: https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/1255320382837608448

 

[Deleted member 1]

The controversial experiments and Wuhan lab suspected of starting the coronavirus pandemic

"The report, dated March 27 and corroborated by two U.S. officials, reveals that U.S. intelligence revised its January assessment in which it "judged that the outbreak probably occurred naturally" to now include the possibility that the new coronavirus emerged "accidentally" due to "unsafe laboratory practices""

Who still thinks this didn't originate in the lab right nearby the wet market?

I think the source is incomplete and the lab a fine guess in theories. Given China's cover-up elsewhere it's an option.

Less likely is the idea of engineering which has been repeated in concert with the wuhan lab theory from the beginning. Zoonotic genome family trees still give data against this and support for a naturally occurring crossover event.

Did a bat virus that was collected from bats leave with a sloppy lab tech? Maybe.

Did a virus get engineered new in the wuhan lab? Current data says almost assuredly not.

 

[Freeloading Rusty]

View: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1255352014042738688?s=21


Well that makes absolutely zero sense.

 

[RaginCajun]

 

[RaginCajun]

 

[RaginCajun]

 

[Yossarian]

How often are we all getting dressed? If I don't have to go out anywhere I really don't bother, far more comfy...seems pointless. Some ABC news anchor airing from home just got caught out with a suit jacket, button up shirt etc but wearing short shorts. At most, I put on PJs but that's about it...saves on laundry consumption too.

3 piece suit every day ma'am, and top hat and monocle.

 

[Hauler]

What if the CDC has been over-reporting normal flu deaths year over year in order to encourage vaccination?

Now people are using reported flu deaths vs actual Covid deaths as an argument to say it's not that bad and the CDC is like: "Oh shit"

 

[RaginCajun]

What if the CDC has been over-reporting normal flu deaths year over year in order to encourage vaccination?

Now people are using reported flu deaths vs actual Covid deaths as an argument to say it's not that bad and the CDC is like: "Oh shit"

 

[Deleted member 1]

View: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1255352014042738688?s=21


Well that makes absolutely zero sense.

It's unfortunate that both the attacks of absolute numbers and the faulty defenses thereof are the topic of conversation.

Maybe I'm missing something, but a more granular breakdown of case density throughout the United States would be a much more helpful data set.
Yes we could do it by state which is a little arbitrary, but I'm pretty sure we have county level data. So I think it would be best to see case density per population at the county level.

 

[Sheepdog]

View: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1255352014042738688?s=21


Well that makes absolutely zero sense.

It makes sense, it's just a lie.

 

[Sheepdog]

The controversial experiments and Wuhan lab suspected of starting the coronavirus pandemic

"The report, dated March 27 and corroborated by two U.S. officials, reveals that U.S. intelligence revised its January assessment in which it "judged that the outbreak probably occurred naturally" to now include the possibility that the new coronavirus emerged "accidentally" due to "unsafe laboratory practices""

Who still thinks this didn't originate in the lab right nearby the wet market?

 

[ConorMcGregor NutHugger]

Again, 2 major meat processing plants are shutdown in my area. Sure farmers have lots but if they cant get their product on store shelves then the store shelves are gonna look pretty barren, which is exactly how they are in my area.

Today a saw operator passed out on the floor. Big fella. Roy Nelson big. Just dropped right there. Took a while for him to get moved. People have been told to say that they are on "vacation" that have been sick. Could be working with someone that has COVID and you have to find out yourself as the company keeps it quite. Kind of like China I assume. People that come back aren't tested a second time. Two weeks are up and you go back to work. B shift is non-existent at this point. Going at 1/4 production. Like I said, most of this product won't see American store shelf's.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Today a saw operator passed out on the floor. Big fella. Roy Nelson big. Just dropped right there. Took a while for him to get moved. People have been told to say that they are on "vacation" that have been sick. Could be working with someone that has COVID and you have to find out yourself as the company keeps it quite. Kind of like China I assume. People that come back aren't tested a second time. Two weeks are up and you go back to work. B shift is non-existent at this point. Going at 1/4 production. Like I said, most of this product won't see American store shelf's.

@kneeblock recently pointed out that the buck passing would naturally occur down the chain to the worker in the current models around the globe. You seem to be confirming some of that.
In healthcare, I've now see contract work that has a "covid disclaimer" where it basically says if you get sick you caused it. That is, hey we told you how to not catch so if it happens, you must have not followed the rules.

@sparkuri was prescient, if not in this reasoning, but his immediate ascertainment that the final response to such a threat would be chaos as a result of this passing from societal to individual threat/responsibility.

 

[ConorMcGregor NutHugger]

@kneeblock recently pointed out that the buck passing would naturally occur down the chain to the worker in the current models around the globe. You seem to be confirming some of that.
In healthcare, I've now see contract work that has a "covid disclaimer" where it basically says if you get sick you caused it. That is, hey we told you how to not catch so if it happens, you must have not followed the rules.

This is exactly what is happening. They gave us some bullshit mask. Thing is that these mask fall off and you start to grab at it to fix. Not to mention the sweat and humidity of ones breath. The mask alone will spread it. Nothing but half ass measures. So now I hear that no responsibility will be taken if we get sick. Even if they knew who had it and who was around them and didn't notify them of situation. So many management are on "vacation" as of now.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Thing is that these mask fall off and you start to grab at it to fix

@Hauler
@Atto