General Thoughts on Georgia shooting?

[The Big Guy]

Actually, the former cop is the guy in the back of the truck. The shotgun guy is that guy's son. At least according to that USA Today article linked to on this page of this thread.

Very possible. The video quality isn't that good. But I agree with your above post 100% you said everything I was trying to say and much better. Good post

 

[mysticmac]

Very possible. The video quality isn't that good.

Yeah, I thought shotgun guy was the father until I read the USA Today article. The son looks older than the dad.

 

[kneeblock]

They did initate the encounter to stop suspected burglar from escaping. That is legal in georgia. Whether anyone like it or not. But he multiplied the danger with the struggle over the gun. He took a tense situation to a whole new level by trying to take a firearm from a former cop, who we can reasonably assume has trained to never let a suspect disarm him. Whether arbery knew he was a former cop or not is irrelevant. If someone pulls a knife on me from 20 feet it's not a great situation. Now if I rush towards them to disarm them I've taken it to a physical level and it's much more likely somebody is getting cut.

I dont believe them following or stopping him put anyone in a life or death situation. Once he initiated a fight for the gun it became a life or death situation for everyone involved.

Also I feel sorry for your friend. Nobody should have to retreat on their own property. These two men will have this haunt them forever regardless of the outcome.

So I do agree with your point it's a tragedy that could have been avoided. But we differ on how. You think no citizens arrest should have been performed or at least not in the way it was. Unfortunately I believe this all started with arbery committing burglary and ended when he tried to disarm a former cop performing a citizens arrest.

The thing is, we don't have enough information to know whether there was any burglary and I have seen no compelling evidence of this "history of burglaries" in the neighborhood, which should be fairly easy to find from local police reports. It doesn't make sense to "believe" Ahmaud was a burglar. That's something that could have been sorted out by local police. What we do know is the blue line protects its own and this guy was a former cop who already had multiple DAs recuse themselves because of conflict of interest. We also know Ahmaud Arbery is dead.

When people perceive themselves to be in danger, they react stupidly. It happens all the time. If two random dudes pull up on you and have guns on you, for most of us, it's hard to know how we'd react. We can all guess that we'd be docile and raise our hands and pray for our lives, but not everyone makes that choice. In the situation I mentioned above with the family friend, the kid tried to knock the gun out of the guy's hand and ended up getting shot. It was a tense moment and he regretted it for the rest of his life. The kid still died and even the shooter said he didn't deserve it. It was a tragedy.

I think states that have laws that incentivize vigilantism, i.e. citizens arrests, create murky situations like this, though I do believe in people's right to defend their life and livelihood. I simply don't believe an armed person in a vehicle following a suspicious person has much reason to leave that vehicle. Old head MMA and kickboxing fans know the story of Alex Gong and how he tragically died trying to fight with an armed guy who didn't even leave the vehicle. All of these situations are usually filled with too much bravado and too little rationality. You're right to say that media narratives will try to twist this into us vs. them logics because that's a hot story especially in a time when no one has much of anything else to do. You're also right to be suspicious of inflammatory stories, but I just say grant Ahmaud the same humanity as the shooters and the same benefit of the doubt.

 

[The Big Guy]

The thing is, we don't have enough information to know whether there was any burglary and I have seen no compelling evidence of this "history of burglaries" in the neighborhood, which should be fairly easy to find from local police reports. It doesn't make sense to "believe" Ahmaud was a burglar. That's something that could have been sorted out by local police. What we do know is the blue line protects its own and this guy was a former cop who already had multiple DAs recuse themselves because of conflict of interest. We also know Ahmaud Arbery is dead.

When people perceive themselves to be in danger, they react stupidly. It happens all the time. If two random dudes pull up on you and have guns on you, for most of us, it's hard to know how we'd react. We can all guess that we'd be docile and raise our hands and pray for our lives, but not everyone makes that choice. In the situation I mentioned above with the family friend, the kid tried to knock the gun out of the guy's hand and ended up getting shot. It was a tense moment and he regretted it for the rest of his life. The kid still died and even the shooter said he didn't deserve it. It was a tragedy.

I think states that have laws that incentivize vigilantism, i.e. citizens arrests, create murky situations like this, though I do believe in people's right to defend their life and livelihood. I simply don't believe an armed person in a vehicle following a suspicious person has much reason to leave that vehicle. Old head MMA and kickboxing fans know the story of Alex Gong and how he tragically died trying to fight with an armed guy who didn't even leave the vehicle. All of these situations are usually filled with too much bravado and too little rationality. You're right to say that media narratives will try to twist this into us vs. them logics because that's a hot story especially in a time when no one has much of anything else to do. You're also right to be suspicious of inflammatory stories, but I just say grant Ahmaud the same humanity as the shooters and the same benefit of the doubt.

I understand your position. I'll be intrested in your opinion if the video of the suspect burglarizing a house is released. It's probably a ring doorbell or something similar. We'll see

I would also be interested if the media articles change headlines from " black jogger murdered" to "fleeing suspect dies over fight for gun" if its proven he was a fleeing suspect.

But him attacking a man holding a gun in almost any situation ends with his death. That's the sad reality. If he did do a burglary he should have kept running. Theres nothing to suggest they were preparing to shoot him.

If arbery was white and did the exact same thing in the video do you think they would have shot him?

 

[kneeblock]

I understand your position. I'll be intrested in your opinion if the video of the suspect burglarizing a house is released. It's probably a ring doorbell or something similar. We'll see

I would also be interested if the media articles change headlines from " black jogger murdered" to "fleeing suspect dies over fight for gun" if its proven he was a fleeing suspect.

But him attacking a man holding a gun in almost any situation ends with his death. That's the sad reality. If he did do a burglary he should have kept running. Theres nothing to suggest they were preparing to shoot him.

If arbery was white and did the exact same thing in the video do you think they would have shot him?

One thing that's interesting is if Ahmaud had the past some sources say he did, it might not have been the first time a gun was pointed at him and it could explain why he thought his main priority was to somehow wrestle the gun away. But I absolutely do think that it didn't matter what color he was, the situation could potentially have ended in his being shot since firearms were present. Like I said, once they pulled up and came out armed, anything could have happened. There's nothing to suggest they were planning to shoot him and nothing to suggest they weren't. We don't know what was said or really what preceded the clip. I hate the idea of jury by camera because there's a disposition to bias viewers to see what they want to see, or in some cases what the creator of a video wants you to see. It's a classic Communication problem really. There's a lot of symbolism involved and we come to the situation with our own interpretive lenses. At bottom all I wish is that it had never happened.

 

[ThatOneDude]

I think we can all agree that tragically, people's actions caused the death of an individual. A life was lost

 

[Filthy]

They could have followed from a safe distance, or he could have just kept running away from their stopped truck. Just like they didn't have to confront him, he didn't have to attack them. He was shot because he attacked them and tried to gain access to their gun.

From what the video shows and the assessment of the DAs, they acted within the limits of the law. He did not. He did something that would logically get anyone shot.

if they didn't have immediate knowledge of the crime, their attempt to arrest was unlawful.

Does anyone know how far he was shot from where they saw him?

 

[Filthy]

The thing is, we don't have enough information to know whether there was any burglary and I have seen no compelling evidence of this "history of burglaries" in the neighborhood, which should be fairly easy to find from local police reports. It doesn't make sense to "believe" Ahmaud was a burglar. That's something that could have been sorted out by local police. What we do know is the blue line protects its own and this guy was a former cop who already had multiple DAs recuse themselves because of conflict of interest. We also know Ahmaud Arbery is dead.

When people perceive themselves to be in danger, they react stupidly. It happens all the time. If two random dudes pull up on you and have guns on you, for most of us, it's hard to know how we'd react. We can all guess that we'd be docile and raise our hands and pray for our lives, but not everyone makes that choice. In the situation I mentioned above with the family friend, the kid tried to knock the gun out of the guy's hand and ended up getting shot. It was a tense moment and he regretted it for the rest of his life. The kid still died and even the shooter said he didn't deserve it. It was a tragedy.

I think states that have laws that incentivize vigilantism, i.e. citizens arrests, create murky situations like this, though I do believe in people's right to defend their life and livelihood. I simply don't believe an armed person in a vehicle following a suspicious person has much reason to leave that vehicle. Old head MMA and kickboxing fans know the story of Alex Gong and how he tragically died trying to fight with an armed guy who didn't even leave the vehicle. All of these situations are usually filled with too much bravado and too little rationality. You're right to say that media narratives will try to twist this into us vs. them logics because that's a hot story especially in a time when no one has much of anything else to do. You're also right to be suspicious of inflammatory stories, but I just say grant Ahmaud the same humanity as the shooters and the same benefit of the doubt.

not just a former cop, retired as an investigator for the DA.

 

[The Big Guy]

if they didn't have immediate knowledge of the crime, their attempt to arrest was unlawful.

Does anyone know how far he was shot from where they saw him?

He ran around the block while being followed by two cars. He was determined to escape

 

[The Big Guy]

not just a former cop, retired as an investigator for the DA.

Your trying so hard its pathetic

 

[Filthy]

Your trying so hard its pathetic

because that's not true?

 

[Filthy]

He ran around the block while being followed by two cars. He was determined to escape

if guys with guns are chasing me, I'm determined to escape.

 

[The Big Guy]

if guys with guns are chasing me, I'm determined to escape.

You dont know guns were involved at that point. Show me where it says that

 

[Splinty]

Apparently it was legal if multiple DAs had no intrest in criminal charges. Your not a district attorney, your a crying liberal on a mma forum.

Know your place.

I'm awaiting your "but the DA wuz rassis" without a fucking shred of proof

Im entering late, but have you learned yet that isn't true?
The case was passed twice dude to an ethics conflict of interest because the dad used be an investigator. So those offices passed on to outside...not because of "no interest in criminal charges".

 

[Splinty]

the reason the person turned on their video camera was because a guy was standing in the back of a truck pointing a gun at a guy running down the road. They were in front of him in the first frame of video, but that wasn't the first frame of their engagement.

The person was videoing much earlier.

Whole video to my knowledge..



View: https://twitter.com/DavidBegnaud/status/1257737290786443266

 

[The Big Guy]

Im entering late, but have you learned yet that isn't true?
The case was passed twice dude to an ethics conflict of interest because the dad used be an investigator. So those offices passed on to outside...not because of "no interest in criminal charges".

I'll try to find where the attorney said there was no reason to charge but because of conflict it was passed.

But I have since seen that

 

[Splinty]

I'll try to find where the attorney said there was no reason to charge but because of conflict it was passed.

Waycross Judicial Circuit Letter on Ahmaud Arbery shooting

 

[The Big Guy]

The father and son were arrested today. All the publicity and the police know people will riot and burn things down in a peaceful protest. They will bail out and/or be found not guilty of murder

And now the bottom feeders are coming

 

[mysticmac]

The person was videoing much earlier.

Whole video to my knowledge..



View: https://twitter.com/DavidBegnaud/status/1257737290786443266

Too bad the cameraman sucks. That doesn't really show much more than news reports have reported.

The truck had tried to cut him off a couple of times, then went around him and stopped in the middle of the road. The son got out of the truck has the guy was running up to the truck.

Then the cameraman decides to film the ditch, and we can't see anything that we can't see in the video in the OP. It'd be nice to see whether or not they had their guns pointed at him as he ran up to the truck, or if they simply had their guns in their hands.

 

[The Big Guy]

Waycross Judicial Circuit Letter on Ahmaud Arbery shooting

That's a very good read

 

[mysticmac]

Im entering late, but have you learned yet that isn't true?
The case was passed twice dude to an ethics conflict of interest because the dad used be an investigator. So those offices passed on to outside...not because of "no interest in criminal charges".

It isn't true. The case went from Brunswick DA, Jackie Johnson. She recused herself (I'm not sure of the exact reason). Then to Waycross DA, George Barnhill.

Barnhill wrote a memo stating his opinion was the guy shouldn't be charged. He also wrote there is a video showing the dead guy robbing a house right before the incident, then he recused himself because the dead guy's mom complained that Barnhill's son worked for the same DA's office the father in the case once worked at. But that wasn't an official report. It was just a memo.

The case is now under Alantic DA, Tom Durden. He is seeking a grand jury review, but that hasn't happened due to COVID shutdowns.

Sources:
NAACP | NAACP Issues Statement on the Murder of Ahmaud Arbery
Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery - Wikipedia

And here is the memo written by Barnhill:
Edit: Oh, Splinty already posted another link to this.
View: https://www.scribd.com/document/460080673/Letter-From-Waycross-DA

 

[Splinty]

He also wrote there is a video showing the dead guy robbing a house right before the incident,

highlight that?

 

[mysticmac]

highlight that?

The memo just says they had first hand knowledge.

It appears Travis McMichael, Greg McMichael, and Bryan William were following, in ?hot
pursuit?, a burglary suspect, with solid first hand probable cause, in their neighborhood, and
asking/ telling him to stop.

News reports have included the information about Barnhill stating there being video.

In a separate document, Mr. Barnhill stated that video exists of Mr. Arbery “burglarizing a home immediately preceding the chase and confrontation.”

Two Weapons, a Chase, a Killing and No Charges

 

[Splinty]

The memo just says they had first hand knowledge.

It appears Travis McMichael, Greg McMichael, and Bryan William were following, in ?hot
pursuit?, a burglary suspect, with solid first hand probable cause, in their neighborhood, and
asking/ telling him to stop.

Roger. Read that.
That's some real supposition by the DA.
AT BEST It only appears those three are looking for a suspect and think they have the right one.

You cannot ascertain anything from that video beyond that including "solid first hand probable cause".

In a separate document, Mr. Barnhill stated that video exists of Mr. Arbery “burglarizing a home immediately preceding the chase and confrontation.”

I await that video. Seems that is the primary case here and its strange this video is released and that one is not.

 

[Splinty]

The father and son were arrested today. All the publicity and the police know people will riot and burn things down in a peaceful protest. They will bail out and/or be found not guilty of murder

And now the bottom feeders are coming

What could you charge the guy in the car with, unless you knew they were going to kill him when you ran him into their trap? Which of course isn't what happened by any evidence.

It's a dude in a car video taping. wtf.