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BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,554
56,071
This might seem like a really stupid question, but YOLO. If they're doing a nasal swab and not detecting it. Wouldn't that mean that those who are vaccinated aren't carrying the same amount of Delta as unvaccinated people as we were told a week or 2 ago?

I'm operating under the assumption that a place like London that basically only has Delta wouldn't be testing on one of the other versions.
 

Rambo John J

Baker Team
First 100
Jan 17, 2015
74,721
73,987
I don't say this often, but Rambo John J @Freedom is right. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Trump was relatively harmless until the label "Dangerous" started getting applied to anything he did. This language started late summer last year, and almost the minute it started things came completely unraveled. Why? Because when you're looking for "danger", you find it.

Even the term "Insurrection". CNN started calling it an insurrection the second the morons broke the window. Does breaking a window meet the definition of insurrection? No, it definitely doesn't, but it's an arousing word to use in public discourse when you're selling a narrative. The flip side would be last year's BLM rallies. There was all sorts of violence committed in the name of rising up against the government. Was it ever deemed to be an "insurrection"? No and personally, I don't really think it should have been because no one actually though the government was going to be toppled but it certainly met the minimum definition.

Edit: Why in the fuck is this in the C19 thread?
Do not agree with me again please.
Pure nut job .
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
44,116
89,905
This might seem like a really stupid question, but YOLO. If they're doing a nasal swab and not detecting it. Wouldn't that mean that those who are vaccinated aren't carrying the same amount of Delta as unvaccinated people as we were told a week or 2 ago?
I might have glossed over where it said it wasn't detecting it. I think they said it's detecting lower viral loads?

There are two studies that I know of right now showing that Delta variant viral load is lower in the vaccinated.

This is good news but we don't yet have patient focused outcomes showing this to be the case. It's just viral loads right now.

The CDC data come from another study from the Massachusetts outbreak (and others) in which vaccinated people had statistically the same amount of viral load as unvaccinated.

Even if you have decreased transmission, if you have huge increases in hospitalization you have some data points suggesting that you need to do something to reduce transmissibility. The vaccine is only one way. So the compilation of data might guide public policy to masking as a precaution. Not what I'm trying to take a stand on here.

But yeah the data is still out on this. Everything is just viral loads and yes this goes against what the CDC found when sampling the Massachusetts outbreak and reviewing other studies.

It's very possible that there is a change in PCR cycles between the studies. PCR does a good job of letting us know yes or no that person has been infected. It loses some chronology. It also leaves the question of transmissibility.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,554
56,071
I might have glossed over where it said it wasn't detecting it. I think they said it's detecting lower viral loads?
I was under the impression it was both. As a laymen it gets confusing when they speak about infection rates among vaccinated people. Because they often don't qualify why they're testing the people to begin with. Ie, If I take 100 people who have been vaccinated and exposed to someone with covid I can potentially get good information. If I take 100 random people with no idea whether or not they've been exposed and then test them, that doesn't really tell me anything.

But when it talked about people not testing positive, I assumed (yes, assumed) that meant that they were testing people who had been exposed, but did not carry enough to test positive.

It also leaves the question of transmissibility.
This, in my opinion is the most relevant question we currently face and it's where all the resources should be going.
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
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This, in my opinion is the most relevant question we currently face and it's where all the resources should be going.
100%
Vaccines are currently only surely good to keep you out of the hospital and keep you from dying. I mean that's good, but it'll take WAY higher rate of vaccination to get our hospitalizations under control if that's the case.
We currently have a giant question mark around "vaccines help you protect those around you".
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,554
56,071
100%
Vaccines are currently only surely good to keep you out of the hospital and keep you from dying. I mean that's good, but it'll take WAY higher rate of vaccination to get our hospitalizations under control if that's the case.
We currently have a giant question mark around "vaccines help you protect those around you".
Remembering that I understand you're dealing with a packed house down at the hospital, the 2 main incentives for me were 1) I was promised a return to normalcy if "X" amount got vaccinated. (That was a lie) 2) It would help protect the 2 people I know who can't get vaccinated. If neither of those things are true, I'm going to be dealing with some substantial buyer's remorse.
 

sparkuri

Pulse on the finger of The Cimmunity
First 100
Jan 16, 2015
37,304
49,105
Since there's 100% effective treatment for so cheap (ivermectin?)...
What do you think I should give my patient that's in the hospital right now on high flow nasal cannula, markedly elevated liver enzyme secondary to their Corona virus infection, history of paroxysmal afib. They have radiology findings consistent covid pneumonia.
They are also receiving dexamethasone, inhaled budesonide, zinc, vitamin D


Ivermectin? What if I tip them into liver failure with their existing transaminitis?

HCQ? Will they survive having both Corona virus and me sending thrm into AFib with RVR?


If they dies from their coronavirus infection, will it be excused because they had comorbitidies?
If they gets hypoxic enough theyll probably go into an arrhythmia with resultant hypotension and then have to be coded and probably not survive it. Will they have died with covid or because of covid?
You're asking me how to treat a patient that didn't get proper treatment from the outset?

How would you treat them?
A vaccine?

This is a ridiculous question & you know it.
There are several treatment options & I'm no doctor.
The point is, we have treatment that was suppressed, criminally.
I didn't suppress it, the medical establishment & the deep state criminals did.

This is the epitome of strawman.
It's like arguing the abortion topic by pulling the cases of impregnated women by rape, when that argument represents the vast minority.

You're better than this.
 

Wintermute

Putin is gay
Apr 24, 2015
5,816
9,189
Yo, I was just looking at the US heat map for COVID... Florida, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi are FUCKING UP, son! Texas isn't great and tornado alley in general is looking grim. Some random redneck counties in the northwest notwithstanding, most of the US COVID problem right now is concentrated in the southeast.
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
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You're asking me how to treat a patient that didn't get proper treatment from the outset?
They arrived with these comorbitidies and liver elevations.


How would you treat them?
As they are being treated and with escalating proticalized therapies that have been should effective in our system by the critical care doctors and infectious disease doctors who I defer to as subject matter experts.


This is a ridiculous question & you know it.
I don't think so. I think it highlights quite clearly how disingenuous it is to constantly act as if there's just such an easy solution here when you're not the one who has to worry about hurting a patient with those supposed solutions that don't have good evidence.



This is the epitome of strawman.
It's like arguing the abortion topic by pulling the cases of impregnated women by rape, when that argument represents the vast minority.

No it's not.
It's literally my daily reality of what I am treating while you armchair about how you really know what we should be doing. So I deferred a real case of a real patient to you.
It's a common one. LFTs are routinely elevated. Patients routinely have QT prolongation and can't take HCQ.

But when the rubber meets the road, you are now telling me you don't have the background to tell me which treatment I'm missing here. But you do have the background to tell me that my treatments are all wrong?
 

sparkuri

Pulse on the finger of The Cimmunity
First 100
Jan 16, 2015
37,304
49,105
As they are being treated and with escalating proticalized therapies that have been should effective in our system by the critical care doctors and infectious disease doctors who I defer to as subject matter experts.
Great, so would I.
Why do you ask me?


I don't think so. I think it highlights quite clearly how disingenuous it is to constantly act as if there's just such an easy solution here when you're not the one who has to worry about hurting a patient with those supposed solutions that don't have good evidence.
We were not discussing ER treatment strategy, we were discussing the coronavirus corporate strategy and suppression of a cure. Then you brought up a hospital case as if that has anything to do with government response.



No it's not.
It's literally my daily reality of what I am treating while you armchair about how you really know what we should be doing. So I deferred a real case of a real patient to you.
It's a common one. LFTs are routinely elevated. Patients routinely have QT prolongation and can't take HCQ.

But when the rubber meets the road, you are now telling me you don't have the background to tell me which treatment I'm missing here. But you do have the background to tell me that my treatments are all wrong?

Yes, it is.
The specifics of your job I'm neither qualified for, nor do they have anything to do with anything.
Just as you defer to folks smarter/more experienced than you, I do.
Those smarter folks that aren't wrapped up personally or emotionally in high-stress treatment have the knowledge, experience, and time to look at these issues from a bird's-eye view.
We're looking at government suppression of viable effective treatments with mountains of data over generations that's been purposely & nefarious withheld from the public.
The MATH protocol was created in what, March 2020?
Hydroxychloriquine & Ivermectin data was available in March and April respectively.
And as you know, there are several other treatments including nucleotides & a dozen others I can't spell.
Vitamins were censored from social media between doctors.
Ventibators with ultraviolet inserts were proved a homerun for those exhausting their lungs on oxygen ventilators to the point of death.
But you're sitting here bringing up common issues you see in an ER environment with an emotional overtone as if that has anything to do with government response.
Is it normal that the most prescribed malaria antiviral in world history be demonized on every media outlet as "dangerous", when it's not?
Is it normal that we're discussing a pandemic before the President of the United States knows it exists?

All these cheap treatments would've saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide, and they should have.
And the system that was exhausted would've had more time and resources dedicated to the patients with the comorbitidies you describe, and our CFR would've been .0005%.
I can't even believe this is a question I have to answer.
To even entertain the thought that the most powerful government on earth can destabilize 30 countries at once but can't implement the treatment notes contained in an email that every 3rd world country has to save its population is moronic.

Benefit of the doubt, you probably haven't has 1/10th the amount of time I've had to listen to the world's top docs from the outset, being in the thick of it.
And you've probably had 2 decades less of understanding in regards to population control research.

But to come at me with a question like that was off the wall.
We're not discussing the treatment options of compromised individuals, and NO ONE is minimizing the value of any human life.
That is evident by my response at the beginning of this thread, my fervent participation & alert level from the beginning, as well as my concern for this disastrous "vaccine" and the deaths attributed to it.

Would it be fair if I accused you of minimizing the deaths of everyone 0-40 who've died of the vaccine vs. apathy for the elderly dying from coronavirus?
It's an unfair, preposterous notion that doesn't deserve the dignity of thought.

Everyone here with few exceptions will help an old lady cross the street.
I'd rather not spend my time deducing my fellow man's level of "goodness" because my fucked up government would rather us demonize our neighbors than them planning and carrying out the demise of our nation with a clear plandemic.
 
M

member 1013

Guest
You're asking me how to treat a patient that didn't get proper treatment from the outset?

How would you treat them?
A vaccine?

This is a ridiculous question & you know it.
There are several treatment options & I'm no doctor.
The point is, we have treatment that was suppressed, criminally.
I didn't suppress it, the medical establishment & the deep state criminals did.

This is the epitome of strawman.
It's like arguing the abortion topic by pulling the cases of impregnated women by rape, when that argument represents the vast minority.

You're better than this.
The man asked you for medical advice to try to save his patients and you get mad at him? He needs access to your truths bruv.
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
44,116
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The man asked you for medical advice to try to save his patients and you get mad at him? He needs access to your truths bruv.
sparkuri @sparkuri
I'm just asking for which of the 100% effective treatments that all of us are too blind to see should be initiated!
 

Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,397
13,870
sparkuri @sparkuri
I'm just asking for which of the 100% effective treatments that all of us are too blind to see should be initiated!
I feel like you two are having separate conversations.

I haven't got the impression that sparkuri @sparkuri is claiming there is one easy solution that applies to everyone in every situation.

I'm going to jump on sparkuri @sparkuri 's platform right quick and ask a question about treatment in general.

Are you seeing/treating patients with a sars-cov-2 diagnosis that doesn't have comorbities? Or doesn't need hospitalization yet? Or are you just treating at the hospital?
 

Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,397
13,870
.
Yes all of the above
If you aren't already answering, I'll save effort and time by just asking what I'm curious about. We had a protocol where we could give bamlanivimab and etesevimab. Are you guys using it at all?
 
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Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
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Would it be fair if I accused you of minimizing the deaths of everyone 0-40 who've died of the vaccine vs. apathy for the elderly dying from coronavirus?
It's an unfair, preposterous notion that doesn't deserve the dignity of thought.
No, but I also don't keep adding "they had co-morbidities" to rationalize why the vaccine is still safe.

If somebody gets hurt or dies from a vaccine it's one person more hurt or killed. Period.

Likewise dead Americans with co-morbidities are still dead Americans. The viruses assessed danger is a result of whatever It does clinically. If it kills 600,000 Americans That's how dangerous it is in our population. As I pointed out if as many adults have comorbidities as those that don't, It is fool hardy to treat previous medical diagnosis as some kind of exceptional population.
 
M

member 3289

Guest
Yo, I was just looking at the US heat map for COVID... Florida, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi are FUCKING UP, son! Texas isn't great and tornado alley in general is looking grim. Some random redneck counties in the northwest notwithstanding, most of the US COVID problem right now is concentrated in the southeast.
Florida at least is above or at the national average in terms of vaccination. Most other states are at least 8 points below.

It's really the only grain of solace I can take. That and that our idiot governor has presidential ambitions but is currently behind in the polls for his re-election bid next year.