Race discussion with Big.Thirsty

[DFW4L]

Sickle cell anemia also occurs in Europeans. Whilst the incidence of occurrence is less common than in Africans, it demonstrates that race is not definitive.

It demonstrates that race exists, in a biological context.

 

[Leigh]

It demonstrates that race exists, in a biological context.

How? Anyone who gets sickle cell is part if a specific race?

 

[DFW4L]

I'm suggesting you are not posting the appropriate detail. You're simply posting that some researchers think this. That's not a conclusive argument. Post the actual information that supports your point. An appeal to authority does not do that.

I am still trying to figure out your position tbh, do you believe that race is only/purely a social construct, mostly one or some variant?

 

[Leigh]

absolutely not, that is absolutely not my position (nor the one taken in any of the sources I linked to with possible exception of Ed Wilson (sociobiology)

Maybe you should clarify your position so that we don't go round in circles. You said that race is a biological classification. I've asked you to explain the differences between the classifications. A classification, by definition, is definitive.

 

[1031]

Leigh tends to be obsessed when he thinks he's right.

Oh man....no truer words have ever been typed in the history of the internet.

 

[DFW4L]

Maybe you should clarify your position so that we don't go round in circles. You said that race is a biological classification. I've asked you to explain the differences between the classifications. A classification, by definition, is definitive.

Race is a biological classification. Yes.

It is also an enormous social construct. Two different things both true, only the former is controversial, mainly because its new science (roughly ten years, since the explosion of our understanding of genetics)

 

[DFW4L]

Oh man....no truer words have ever been typed in the history of the internet.

he has also acknowledged he was incorrect and proven wrong on this very topic once before when he held the opposite position he currently does.

 

[Robbie Hart]

Oh man....no truer words have ever been typed in the history of the internet.

He says "if the argument and/or evidence is compelling, I can change my mind"

 

[DFW4L]

I can change my mind. It's how I came to my current position - I used to believe race was physical but got owned in a discussion and was prompted to research it myself.

Key question here before we waste each others time - did this occur more than ten or so years ago?

 

[Leigh]

I am still trying to figure out your position tbh, do you believe that race is only/purely a social construct, mostly one or some variant?

Ok, fair point. I should provide my position as well.

The idea of race was proposed well before the science of genetics and was based on appearance, when parts of the world had not been discovered by those creating the designations. It cannot possibly therefore be based on genetic differences.

There are average physical differences between races but this doesn't prove a physical difference between races. For example, west Africans have a higher incidence of ACTN3. West Africans happen to be black, so blacks on average are faster sprinters but being black in itself doesn't make someone a faster sprinter, the ACTN3 gene does.

Some black people have dark skin, some have lighter skin than Indians or even south Europeans. Some europeans have curly hair, some have epicanthal folds.

A race cannot be defined either physically or scientifically, only averages. Race isn't physically real.

 

[Robbie Hart]

he has also acknowledged he was incorrect and proven wrong on this very topic once before when he held the opposite position he currently does.

He used a very compelling word in his response to me calling him out in being "strong minded".......he said he "can change his mind" if the argument and/or evidence is compelling".......he can, he doesn't say he will, he can....

 

[Leigh]

Key question here before we waste each others time - did this occur more than ten or so years ago?

No, probably about 3-4

 

[1372]

He used a very compelling word in his response to me calling him out in being "strong minded".......he said he "can change his mind" if the argument and/or evidence is compelling".......he can, he doesn't say he will, he can....

Sounds like your missus allowing you to use the internet throb.

 

[Lord Vutulaki]

thanks, going offline but I suggest these articles as a primer:

Race and genetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most relevant excerpt (most relevant to my position):

Most physical anthropologists consider race to be primarily a social category that does not correspond significantly with biological variation, but some anthropologists, particularly forensic anthropologists, consider race a useful biological category. They argue that it is possible to determine race from physical remains with a reasonable degree of certainty; what is identified is the geographic phenotype. Medical practitioners also sometimes argue that racial categories can be used successfully as proxies to assess risk of those different heritable illnesses that occur with different frequencies among populations of different geographic ancestries.

NYT Science Editor: Race Is Real

A longstanding orthodoxy among social scientists holds that human races are a social construct and have no biological basis. A related assumption is that human evolution halted in the distant past, so long ago that evolutionary explanations need never be considered by historians or economists.

In the decade since the decoding of the human genome, a growing wealth of data has made clear that these two positions, never at all likely to begin with, are simply incorrect. There is indeed a biological basis for race....

Sociobiology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (super inflammatory)

Sociobiologists believe that human behavior, as well as nonhuman animal behavior, can be partly explained as the outcome of natural selection. They contend that in order to fully understand behavior, it must be analyzed in terms of evolutionary considerations.

Natural selection is fundamental to evolutionary theory. Variants of hereditary traits which increase an organism's ability to survive and reproduce will be more greatly represented in subsequent generations, i.e., they will be "selected for". Thus, inherited behavioral mechanisms that allowed an organism a greater chance of surviving and/or reproducing in the past are more likely to survive in present organisms. That inherited adaptive behaviors are present in nonhuman animal species has been multiply demonstrated by biologists, and it has become a foundation of evolutionary biology. However, there is continued resistance by some researchers over the application of evolutionary models to humans, particularly from within the social sciences, where culture has long been assumed to be the predominant driver of behavior.


-

acknowledging in advance there are a billion links/sources that will suggest I, and Nick Wade, are idiot 'climate change denier' types

Forensic anthropologists consider race a useful category eh?

Who would have thought? ??


Fucking jesus

 

[DFW4L]

The idea of race was proposed well before the science of genetics and was based on appearance, when parts of the world had not been discovered by those creating the designations. It cannot possibly therefore be based on genetic differences.

Yes, that happened and it was very flawed for the reason you mention, and with the advent of Western Social Sciences Race as a social construct was studied/documented and researched to such a massive extent the sciences, social and otherwise, almost unanimously developed the theory that race is only a social construct...

that premise has been obliterated in the last ten years by genetics...

Now we know race exists physically, which does not stop it from being an enormous social construct

 

[1372]

View: https://youtu.be/-VEcO8djtI0

 

[Robbie Hart]

Sounds like your missus allowing you to use the internet throb.

Sounds like your ass is itchy

 

[1372]

Sounds like your ass is itchy

Anusol

Winner....Cream it up then squat and insert.

 

[Lord Vutulaki]

The intro to that wikipedia page is poorly sourced, this is a relevant source to that point (as is sickle cell anaemia)...

The Whole Side of It—An Interview with Neil Risch

sickle cell anaemia presents itself from sub saharan Africa through south Asia and into the northern Mediterranean

Why the fuck aren't you actually researching this bullshit?

 

[1372]

What was this thread about again?

 

[DFW4L]

No, probably about 3-4

Not surprised, it will exist forever as an argument, because it was 'common knowledge' for decades through the explosion of social sciences...

so many peoples entire careers/lives have been dedicated to this, genetics has shit in their hats recently, they are mad/rabid/savage, etc

 

[DFW4L]

sickle cell anaemia presents itself from sub saharan Africa through south Asia and into the northern Mediterranean

Why the fuck aren't you actually researching this bullshit?

lol

Race physically exists, its not the exclusive arbitrator of who gets what diseases.

 

[Lord Vutulaki]

lol

Race physically exists, its not the exclusive arbitrator of who gets what diseases.

Then why did you post that?

Also show me one genetic mutation that exclusively presents itself among one particular group of humans.

Challenge accepted?

 

[sparkuri]

We don't have to call it "race".

How about Bonkyschmepp?

 

[DFW4L]

Then why did you post that?

Also show me one genetic mutation that exclusively presents itself among one particular group of humans.

Challenge accepted?

No.

I think you are misunderstanding the idea I follow that race physically exists but is not reliant on any level of race based trait exclusivity to prove that...

If those exclusive traits/mutations did exist (past tense)....transportation technology is a <Joe Rogan voice> MOOTHER FUUUCKER

show me a European with an Afro, sickle cell and a huge dick....I'll show you a boat, lol