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Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,404
13,872
For those that think the virus is far more spread than testing indicates (there is reason to believe you're right) do you also hold that the virus is less deadly than you're calculating? That would seem to go together since death rate = deaths: positive tests and not a ratio involving total infection.

As has been highlighted in the news, there seems to be some variation in test accuracy and testing strategies. But surely if we believe the outbreak is larger, then we must also consider that it is less deadly.
What do you think about the lady they released from quarantine in Texas? She tested negative twice. They did a third test and released her. Her third test was positive so they called her back.

Do you think she contracted it a second time, or is there an issue with the testing?
 

Rambo John J

Baker Team
First 100
Jan 17, 2015
75,303
74,450
What do you think about the lady they released from quarantine in Texas? She tested negative twice. They did a third test and released her. Her third test was positive so they called her back.

Do you think she contracted it a second time, or is there an issue with the testing?
isn't it considered a "flare up"

Like once you have it you don't actually get rid of it, you just build up resistance/immunity?

Ya the testing probably sucks.
 

Rambo John J

Baker Team
First 100
Jan 17, 2015
75,303
74,450
Good question. Let me know when you find out. :)
Not a doctor here...I was under the impression that once you get a bug you don't get rid of it you just suppress it with your immune system.

So we all roll with old bugs and when immune system gets low we can get sick.

Occasionally something new rolls around and people's system gets it and has to adjust, or not...Seems like this is something new.

Correct my bullshit please Splinty @SplinterSan or
SC MMA MD @SC MMA MD
 

Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,404
13,872
isn't it considered a "flare up"

Like once you have it you don't actually get rid of it, you just build up resistance/immunity?

Ya the testing probably sucks.
Some COVID-19 patients test positive days after recovery

This was a good read.


Some COVID-19 patients test positive days after recovery
Filed Under:
COVID-19
Mary Van Beusekom | News Writer | CIDRAP News
|
Feb 28, 2020


Four medical professionals with COVID-19 who met the criteria for hospital release or lifting of quarantine in China had positive real-time reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) results 5 to 13 days later, according to a research letter published yesterday in JAMA.

The researchers said the results suggest that current criteria for hospital release or lifting of quarantine and continued treatment should be reevaluated. "These findings suggest that at least a proportion of recovered patients may still be virus carriers," they wrote.

Other new research involving the novel coronavirus includes two large clinical studies highlighting the extent of severe cases and common comorbidities, and a UK report notes that its first two COVID-19 cases would not have gotten tested using case definitions.

Serial positive RT-PCR results
In the small JAMA study, throat swabs from one hospitalized patient and three patients in home quarantine treated at Zhongnan Hospital of Wuhan University from Jan 1 to Feb 15 were tested with RT-PCR for COVID-19 nucleic acid to determine if the patients could return to work.

Criteria for hospital release or return to work included normal temperature for at least 3 days, resolved respiratory symptoms, substantially improved lesions on chest computed tomography (CT), and two consecutive negative RT-PCR test results at least 1 day apart.

RT-PCR results of the patients, two men and two women aged 30 to 36 years, were positive, and CT scans showed mild to moderate areas of fluid buildup. The patients were given antiviral medication and recovered 12 to 32 days after symptom onset. After meeting the criteria for hospital release or lifting of quarantine, the patients were asked to remain at home for another 5 days.

RT-PCR was performed again 5 to 13 days later and repeated three times over the next 4 or 5 days—and all tests were positive. Another RT-PCR test with a kit from a different manufacturer confirmed the results. The patients were asymptomatic, CT showed no changes, and they reported no contact with anyone with respiratory symptoms or infected family members.

"Further studies should follow up patients who are not healthcare professionals and who have more severe infection after hospital discharge or discontinuation of quarantine," the authors noted. "Longitudinal studies on a larger cohort would help to understand the prognosis of the disease."

Experts recommend cautious interpretation
Although the results are interesting, it should be noted that RT-PCR measures viral genomic material but doesn't necessarily indicate contagiousness, said Stanley Perlman, MD, PhD, professor of microbiology and immunology at the University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics in Iowa City.

"Genomic material comes from virus, of course, but it does not indicate that infectious virus is present," Perlman said, adding that a positive test means that virus or was present a day or two before. "Certainly [RT-PCR] is useful diagnostically; it is less useful for telling us whether someone is contagious." He was not involved in the study.

He added, "The patients may be patient carriers or they may just have viral genomic material without any infectious virus. It is hard to know—and hard to know if they are infectious as well. This is all murky at present."

Florian Krammer PhD, virologist and vaccinologist in the Department of Microbiology at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City, said on Twitter that the RNA of many viruses can be detected months after viral shedding has ended.

"Follow-up tests can turn positive after a few negative tests, eg because sampling was better," Krammer said. "Also, and this is a very important point, just because somebody still tests positive in a nuclei acid-based test does not mean they are still shedding infectious virus."

Some patients lack fever, CT findings at first
In other research news, investigators at Guangzhou Institute of Respiratory Disease in China published a report on COVID-19 symptoms and severity today in The New England Journal of Medicine, noting a 1.4% death in hospitalized patients and the fact that some patients had no fever or radiographic abnormalities initially.

The investigators mined the medical records of 1,099 patients with laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 from 522 hospitals in 30 Chinese provinces from December 2019 to Jan 29. The patients' median age was 47 years, and 41.9% were women.

Sixty-seven (6.1%) of the patients reached the primary composite end point of admission to the intensive care unit (ICU) (5.0%), mechanical ventilation (2.3%), or death (1.4%). Only 1.9% had contact with wildlife, while 72.3% of non-Wuhan residents had contact with Wuhan residents, including 31.3% who had traveled to the city.

The most common symptoms were fever (43.8% on hospitalization and 88.7% during hospitalization) and cough (67.8%). Diarrhea occurred in only 3.8%. While fluid buildup was commonly seen on chest CT (56.4%), no radiographic or CT abnormalities were seen in 157 of 877 patients (17.9%) with nonsevere disease and five of 173 patients (2.9%) with severe disease. Lymphocytopenia (low white blood cell count) was seen in 83.2% of patients at admission.

"Some patients with COVID-19 do not have fever or radiologic abnormalities on initial presentation, which has complicated the diagnosis," the authors wrote.

Comorbidities and risk for poor outcomes
Meanwhile, a retrospective non–peer-reviewed article by much the same group of researchers in Guangzhou, China, found that co-existing diseases are found in about one quarter of hospitalized COVID-19 patients and tend to worsen the patients' prognosis.

The study of 1,590 patients with lab-confirmed COVID-19 from 575 hospitals across China, published yesterday on medRxiv, collected data from Nov 21, 2019, to Jan 31.

Mean patient age was 48.9 years, and 686 (42.7%) were women. Severe cases made up 16.0% of the study population, and 131 (8.2%) reached the primary end points of ICU admission, mechanical ventilation, or death. (The fatality rate was 3.1%.)

At least one comorbidity was reported in 399 (25.1%) of patients, the most common of which were high blood pressure (269, 16.9%) and cardiovascular disease (59, 3.7%). Two or more comorbidities were reported in 130 (8.2%) of patients, who had a significantly elevated risk of reaching an end point compared with those with one comorbidity and an even higher risk than those with none (P < 0.05).

After adjusting for age and smoking status, patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (hazard ratio [HR], 2.7; 95% confidence interval [CI],1.4-5.0), diabetes (HR, 1.6; 95% CI, 1.0-2.5), high blood pressure (HR, 1.6; 95% CI, 1.1-2.3), and cancer (HR, 3.5, 95% CI 1.6-7.6) were most likely to reach an end point than those without those diseases.

The death rate among COVID-19 patients with one or more comorbidities was 5.6%.

UK's first patients did not meet testing criteria
Finally, researchers at Hull University in Hull, England, published a letter yesterday in The Lancet describing how their country's first two COVID-19 patients tested positive for the virus even though they didn't meet current case definitions.

The patients were identified as at-risk while still in the community and transported from their hotel to the university hospital, where they were tested.

The researchers said that the case highlights important points about the management of COVID-19. "Had [clinical] criteria been strictly applied, testing might not have been done," they wrote, noting that applying case definitions is the best way to target testing. "However, with any newly emerging infection, case definitions must evolve rapidly as information accrues."
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
44,116
89,915
What do you think about the lady they released from quarantine in Texas? She tested negative twice. They did a third test and released her. Her third test was positive so they called her back.

Do you think she contracted it a second time, or is there an issue with the testing?
of course I don't have access to the actual testing protocol so this is some conjecture, but it's really unlikely that she caught it again. So I would guess that it's the test themselves. Different labs are submitting different protocols for approval with studied sensitivity and specificity. So with that much variation I'm guessing that these tests are meant to be highly specific but not as sensitive and they're getting that dialed in.

No I can't figure out how you release somebody if you thought you needed to do a third test. If you did the third test you should wait for the result of the third test. For the record, there are things in medicine like tuberculosis or clostridium difficile that it's standard to need multiple test to confirm or deny an infection. That doesn't mean the test is bad it just means that you need multiple data points. It was a bad call to release that lady when the third test was still pending in my opinion
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
44,116
89,915
I'm here to eat my words. I had a patient on droplet precautions Monday and ran out of masks. I went to the stock cabinet to get a new box and found a note taped to an empty shelf. It read, "please see charge nurse or supervisor for masks."

Apparently cases of masks went missing over the weekend.

:confused:
Army reserve component has already put out the notice that there is supply chain issues and we can't order hand sanitizer or mask now. We have whatever's in our stocks and are ordered to follow additional guidelines on soap and water to avoid using up hand sanitizer. Likewise masks are to only be used in certain situations to prevent running out. We can't order more at the moment.
 

Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,404
13,872
of course I don't have access to the actual testing protocol so this is some conjecture, but it's really unlikely that she caught it again. So I would guess that it's the test themselves. Different labs are submitting different protocols for approval with studied sensitivity and specificity. So with that much variation I'm guessing that these tests are meant to be highly specific but not as sensitive and they're getting that dialed in.

No I can't figure out how you release somebody if you thought you needed to do a third test. If you did the third test you should wait for the result of the third test. For the record, there are things in medicine like tuberculosis or clostridium difficile that it's standard to need multiple test to confirm or deny an infection. That doesn't mean the test is bad it just means that you need multiple data points. It was a bad call to release that lady when the third test was still pending in my opinion
The article I posted above said possibly that better specimens were taken that tested positive (so maybe a nasal swab?)

I know I've had multiple patients that I go to take a flu swab and they say, "oh they did that at the urgent care and it was negative" and mine comes back positive. Many nurses barely swab one nare.


Funny side note: As a new nurse I was swabbing a patient for flu while a doctor was at bedside. He schooled me on why that was not a good specimen, took the swab, and did it himself. I could barely contain my shock and then laughter before leaving the room. When that swab came out it was bent up so much it look like the line on an ekg strip.
 

SongExotic2

ATM 3 CHAMPION OF THE WORLD. #ASSBLOODS
First 100
Jan 16, 2015
41,993
54,194
Goddammit they just delayed the release of bond by six months.

Wtf
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
44,116
89,915
Funny side note: As a new nurse I was swabbing a patient for flu while a doctor was at bedside. He schooled me on why that was not a good specimen, took the swab, and did it himself. I could barely contain my shock and then laughter before leaving the room. When that swab came out it was bent up so much it look like the line on an ekg strip.

LMAO
 

sparkuri

Pulse on the finger of The Cimmunity
First 100
Jan 16, 2015
37,659
49,521
For those that think the virus is far more spread than testing indicates (there is reason to believe you're right) do you also hold that the virus is less deadly than you're calculating? That would seem to go together since death rate = deaths: positive tests and not a ratio involving total infection.

As has been highlighted in the news, there seems to be some variation in test accuracy and testing strategies. But surely if we believe the outbreak is larger, then we must also consider that it is less deadly.
Of course.
And again, dying from it isn't the only concern.
Vaccines will likely do more damage, as will permanent organ damage, and a few hundred other consequences of living through it.
 

sparkuri

Pulse on the finger of The Cimmunity
First 100
Jan 16, 2015
37,659
49,521
Didn't say it was. Just I see deaths still quoted (xxxx percent deadlier than the flu!!), so we should be keeping up the context of the moving data.



So...maybe a waiver on everyone's signature line?
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
44,116
89,915
Not a doctor here...I was under the impression that once you get a bug you don't get rid of it you just suppress it with your immune system.

So we all roll with old bugs and when immune system gets low we can get sick.

Occasionally something new rolls around and people's system gets it and has to adjust, or not...Seems like this is something new.

Correct my bullshit please Splinty @SplinterSan or
SC MMA MD @SC MMA MD

For the great majority of infections that's not true. Let's take the common cold viruses. your body has a first line defense against things it's never seen. This is what kicks off fever response and fights infections that you haven't been exposed to. That first line defense is non-specific. Following exposure to an antigen (a foreign body that kicks off an immune response) your body starts putting together a variety of more specialized mechanisms including specific antibodies to that specific antigen. You killed the infection and you maintain those antibodies for some duration of time. For some people that's lifelong immunity. For some it might not be. For different types of infections duration of immunity varies.
This is a great majority of infections.
In some cases you have interesting things that happen like chickenpox. Or herpes. In both of these cases, cells in your body have a dormant infection that does indeed flare up during times of physiologic stress. This is what happens with shingles from people who had chickenpox as a kid.
 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
47,554
59,442
I can't wait for the "Did you bother getting the Covid-19 shot?" discussion on here in 2024.