What makes one "Greater" than Fedor?

Welcome to our Community
Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to Sign Up today.
Sign up

D241

Banned
Jan 14, 2015
4,384
4,742
Are you saying Randy, or Mir, or Brock, or Carwin, or Cain, or JDS are "Greater" than Fedor?

You keep discrediting Fedor, but I'm wanting to know who you think has done greater. Can you tell me?
 

MMAHAWK

Real Gs come from California.America Muthafucker
Feb 5, 2015
15,237
33,221
Mertvaya Ruka;28324 said:
Weird spin on the typical "Fedor is GOAT" thread.

Anyway, you want criticism?

For one, Fedor didn't seek to fight the best at all times. His career was mismanaged, the way he went out was pretty fucking lame to be honest. He's a great fighter but not fighting in the UFC hurt is credibility big time.

And anyway, you are trying to make a point Fedor wouldn't even try to make. He never sought to be the "GOAT", he gave 0 fuck about that, hence why there's plenty of guys he didn't seek to fight in the UFC.
Any heavyweight that wanted to fight the best came looking for Fedor not the other way around. That is why AA #2 at the time and big Tim #4 left UFC to fight Fedor. Randy tried to leave and got sued and Barnett test positive. Was he supposed to go to UFC to fight lower ranked competition?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
24,348
31,961
D241;n28361 said:
All I'm saying, is many people feel GSP or Anderson is Goat. I wanted them to tell me what they did that they think is greater than what Fedor did.

For some reason this thread is turning into a bash Fedor thread.

It's 3 pages deep, and no one has mentioned a fighter they think is greater than Fedor, and what they did that makes them greater.

Zeph;n27367 said:
If Aldo beats Conor he will be on a 10 year, 19 fight win streak. Only 1 fight in that streak was even close, against Mendes, but Jose clearly won it(minus the Conor fight, obviously). 9 finishes in that streak, so currently 50% of the fights in his streak he has finished. Assuming he beats Conor, he will have beat the best each discipline has to offer, the best grapplers and strikers. Never been in real trouble, the closest he has come to trouble is a flash knockdown against Mendes, but he literally bounced back to his feet and came back stronger than ever.
 

D241

Banned
Jan 14, 2015
4,384
4,742
Are you saying Aldo beating a whole bunch of 145lb guys, half of them not being finished, that that is better than Fedor's 10 year 31 fight win streak beating guys who would crush the 145lb men Aldo beat-in so many words?
 

ShatsBassoon

Throwing bombs & banging moms
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
18,605
33,617
nni;n27977 said:
This "least talented" division argument is bogus. Smaller weight classes have a larger population of individuals to choose from, but that doesn't mean that a more talented small fighter can compete with a significantly larger, less talented fighter.

Do you think that the most talented lightweight or welterweight could win a fight at Heavyweight?

Do you think that if Fedor fought guys in lower divisions at the time he would have lost more?
Dan Henderson
 

La Paix

Fuck this place
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
38,256
64,392
ShatsBassoon;n28578 said:
Dan Henderson
I'm sure you're being the devils advocate but to base an entire career off that loss or the other 3 compared to everything else he did isn't a winning argument.
 

ShatsBassoon

Throwing bombs & banging moms
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
18,605
33,617
This is before GSP's last title fight against Hendricks.

Georges “Rush” St-Pierre (age 32):
 Won 11 UFC title fights (tied for 1st place*Source), 8 of those were defenses (2nd place*Source). His record in UFC title fights is 11-2.
 Georges is guaranteed to be a UFC champion for over 6 years and 3 months (multiple title reigns)(2nd place*Source)
 Georges won 18 fights in the UFC (tied for 1st place*Source)
 St-Pierre's UFC win percentage is .900 (18 wins in 20 fights); his overall win percentage is .923 (24 wins in 26 fights*Source). Both percentages are better than Fedor and Anderson
 GSP’s longest consecutive win streak in the UFC was 11 (tied for 2nd place*Source)

Strength of schedule:
 Georges had 13 UFC title bouts (2nd place*Source). 58% of the fights in his entire professional career have been for a title (15 title fights out of 26 total fights)
 GSP has 16 wins against opponents that were ranked in the top 5 at the time of the fight (1st place*CoffeeandBeer's thread)
 Georges has 16 wins against opponents that were ranked in the top 10 at the time of the fight (tied for 1st place*Rester's thread)
 St-Pierre’s record vs. current/future UFC hall of famers is 4 wins and 1 loss (2-0 vs. BJ Penn, and 2-1 vs. Matt Hughes) *Source
 GSP has 6 wins against former UFC champs (Hughes 2x, BJ 2x, Condit, and Serra) *Source. Sherk hadn’t been a UFC champion at the time of his fight with Georges.
 He defeated 3 BJJ world medalists (BJ 2x, Serra, Shields), an NCAA D1 national wrestling champ (Kos 2x), the best MMA bottom game (Condit, Diaz), the best MMA top game (Hughes 2x, Fitch, Shields), the best judoka (Karo), the best kickboxers (Alves, Condit), and the best boxers (BJ, Nick) at WW *Source
 He routed seven fighters that have received votes on the Yahoo writers poll for P4P best – including Hughes (2x), Fitch, Baby Jay (2x), Alves, Shields, Condit, and Diaz. No other champ in the history of their P4P poll can say that
 GSP finished the phenomenal double digit win streaks of Fitch (16*Source), Shields (15*Source), and Sherk (12*Source)

Other Significant Stats:
 Future hall of famer (first ballot)
 Professional MMA career: 11+ years (January 25, 2002 – TBD)*Source
 Won a total of 5 UFC of the night bonuses*Source: FOTN 3x, SOTN 1x, KOTN 1x
 Rank on the UFC’s official top 10 significant stats lists (most well rounded):
Striking
  • Total strikes landed - 2,398 (1st place*Source)
  • Significant strikes landed - 1,153 (1st place*Source)
  • Knockdowns landed - 8 (tied for 8th place*Source)
  • Significant strike defense - 75.1% (3rd place*Source)
  • Strikes absorbed per minute - 1.27 (tied for 8th place*Source)
  • Strike differential - 2.53 (5th place*Source)
Wrestling*Click here
  • Takedowns landed - 84 (1st place*Source)
  • Takedown accuracy - 75% (1st place*Source)
  • Takedown defense - 88% (4th place*Source)
BJJ
  • Most guard passes (1st place*Source)
  • Submissions attempted - 22 (7th place*Source)
 Total fight time in the UFC – experience in the octagon (tied for 1st place*Source)
 St-Pierre won 33 consecutive rounds in the UFC (1st place*Source)
 Georges is the only current/future hall of fame legendary champion that can say he holds wins over every opponent he has ever faced (avenged all losses)*Source
 All-time bestselling MMA PPV King (and it's not even close) – real fans vote with their wallets and the message is clear*Dana White
 At UFC 129, he headlined a card that set the North American MMA attendance record and the worldwide live gate record for an MMA event*Source
 UFC Compensation: GSP “Game Over” money*Dana White

Source: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f2/historical-significance-gsps-next-fight-updated-2504741/
 

ShatsBassoon

Throwing bombs & banging moms
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
18,605
33,617
Another thing to consider when comparing fighters is round win%
Im not certain but I imagine GSP dropped far fewer rounds than anyone in the GOAT discussion.
 

La Paix

Fuck this place
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
38,256
64,392
Put any and all GOAT candidates in an open weight tourney in their prime and ask yourself you would win. That guy would be the greatest.
 

La Paix

Fuck this place
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
38,256
64,392
Put any and all GOAT candidates in an open weight tourney in their prime and ask yourself you would win. That guy would be the greatest, I think.
 

ShatsBassoon

Throwing bombs & banging moms
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
18,605
33,617
Put any and all GOAT candidates in an open weight tourney in their prime and ask yourself you would win. That guy would be the greatest, I think
 

D241

Banned
Jan 14, 2015
4,384
4,742
ShatsBassoon;n28594 said:
Put any and all GOAT candidates in an open weight tourney in their prime and ask yourself you would win. That guy would be the greatest, I think

That's a good way to decide. Never thought of that angle, but you put a tourny together of
Fedor
Anderson
GSP
Aldo
Igor
Big Nog
Henderson
Jones

Fedor.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
24,348
31,961
D241;n28575 said:
Are you saying Aldo beating a whole bunch of 145lb guys, half of them not being finished, that that is better than Fedor's 10 year 31 fight win streak beating guys who would crush the 145lb men Aldo beat-in so many words?
The finish rate is a good argument, but slightly disingenuous considering the divisions they fought in. Featherweight fighters have less power than heavyweights to knock people out, there will always be less finishes in that division overall. However, the overall talent is higher in the 145 division than it will ever be at heavyweight, due to being closer to the size of an average human male.

There are no freakshow fights in Aldo's streak, like the Zulu fight or the Hong Man Choi fight. As amazing as Fedor's run is, there is no denying it is filled with guys who should never have been in the cage with him. Now, that isn't Fedor's fault, it was the nature of the promotions he fought in, but it does matter in his legacy.

Fedor's best wins are against Nog, Coleman, Randleman, Arlovski, Slyvia and Crocop - an impressive resume by any standards and certainly the best heavyweight resume so far - but the talent level at heavyweight just isn't as good as the guys at featherweight. Pound for pound, Tim Sylvia wouldn't be able to compete at featherweight, Randleman and Coleman would never get passed the top 15 guys because they are so one dimensional and Cropcop would be found out

Arlovski would have the most success as his technical boxing is good and wouldn't be getting hit as hard, but I'd take Mendes, Edgar, Aldo, Conor, Lamas and Faber to beat him. As for Fedor, he is the most interesting, because he was so well rounded and skilled for a heavyweight. His stand up is crisp, he hits hard, had strong judo from the clinch to take it the mat and a strong Sambo ground game. I think he finds a way to win against all those featherweights, except Aldo. He wouldn't be able to get the takedown and Aldo is a better striker than him.

In terms of achievement within their division, yes currently Fedor is greater, but I think if Aldo beats Conor he has a legitimate argument for beating higher skilled guys and having a streak which has lasted just as long and could he been as many fights if you had him fight guys who didn't belong in their with him, interspersed with legitimate fights. As for the argument that Fedor would beat them because they are smaller, than argument is asinine. Floyd Mayweather has a legitimate argument for being the best boxer ever, whether you agree with it or not, the argument is there to be made, but he would still lose to even today's heavyweight top 10.

Fedor will always be considered among the greats of MMA, but Aldo has the potential to eclipse him. Don't forget Aldo has done all this and he is only 28, he could be fighting for another 10 years if he has the longevity of Anderson Silva.
 

D241

Banned
Jan 14, 2015
4,384
4,742
Zeph;n28982 said:
As for the argument that Fedor would beat them because they are smaller, than argument is asinine. Floyd Mayweather has a legitimate argument for being the best boxer ever, whether you agree with it or not, the argument is there to be made, but he would still lose to even today's heavyweight top 10.
Exactly. Greatest is actual, not what if. Pound for pound talk is "what if", as in "what if Floyd Mayweather had Muhammad Ali's body structure.

Floyd has an argument for being the best boxer ever.....pound for pound. It's quite obvious there are several fighters who could beat him, which if FM could beat them, that would be Great, but he can't.

I bet your opinion is if you gave Jose Aldo Fedor's body, but with everything else Jose Aldo, you would think Aldo is a better fighter(I wouldn't argue).
But if you had Jose in a tournament with the 7 other Goat candidates, you surely admit that Jose would not make it to the finals. So if Jose is the least threatening fighter, I don't understand what makes him so great?

Now again, if we're talking his skills in a bigger man's body, that's a different argument. But we're talking actual greatest fighter, like boxing's actual greatest fighter, no one says Floyd would beat Ali. Pound for pound they might say Floyd is better, but in terms of actual ability to be great regardless of skill AND size, Ali/Fedor all the way.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
24,348
31,961
D241;n28998 said:
Exactly. Greatest is actual, not what if. Pound for pound talk is "what if", as in "what if Floyd Mayweather had Muhammad Ali's body structure.

Floyd has an argument for being the best boxer ever.....pound for pound. It's quite obvious there are several fighters who could beat him, which if FM could beat them, that would be Great, but he can't.

I bet your opinion is if you gave Jose Aldo Fedor's body, but with everything else Jose Aldo, you would think Aldo is a better fighter(I wouldn't argue).
But if you had Jose in a tournament with the 7 other Goat candidates, you surely admit that Jose would not make it to the finals. So if Jose is the least threatening fighter, I don't understand what makes him so great?

Now again, if we're talking his skills in a bigger man's body, that's a different argument. But we're talking actual greatest fighter, like boxing's actual greatest fighter, no one says Floyd would beat Ali. Pound for pound they might say Floyd is better, but in terms of actual ability to be great regardless of skill AND size, Ali/Fedor all the way.
If we are just talking who would win in a fight, then Cain Velasquez is the greatest fighter ever.

Edit: And Lennox Lewis is the greatest boxer ever.
 

D241

Banned
Jan 14, 2015
4,384
4,742
what bases do you have Cain being better than Fedor. What has he done to make you think that?
Same goes for Lennox, what do you think Lennox has done to be viewed as the greatest boxer ever?
 

La Paix

Fuck this place
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
38,256
64,392
I dont like he debate about HW not being as talented compared to smaller classes, that's the balance of life. Its the as comparing a crazy modded turbo 4 cylinder engine against a healthy big block. Bottom line is the HW can and will use size over teqniqie and still get the job done and that's not a bad thing. Its similar to how people will complain about the flyweights or whatever not having as many finishes in fights due to lack of power. Big guys can rely on just being bigger and the trade off is cardio and technique so one could argue that game planning and defense is much more critical to them than to ants who stand and wang. So does this mean the HW are superior in those areas? Its all in the wording of the topic. To me the GOAT better be the guy who will literally beat up all the other ones on the list, Fedor. If its worded most dominant then its more about winning streak, title defenses or finish rate so this could be GSP/Aldo or whoever.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
24,348
31,961
D241;n29008 said:
what bases do you have Cain being better than Fedor. What has he done to make you think that?
Same goes for Lennox, what do you think Lennox has done to be viewed as the greatest boxer ever?
So now it is about what have you done? You just said it was who was going to win a fight. If it is what have you done, then I made my case for Aldo. If it is who would win in a fight then my pick is Cain Velasquez.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
24,348
31,961
I sucked Stillmatics WOODley;n29014 said:
I dont like he debate about HW not being as talented compared to smaller classes, that's the balance of life. Its the as comparing a crazy modded turbo 4 cylinder engine against a healthy big block. Bottom line is the HW can and will use size over teqniqie and still get the job done and that's not a bad thing. Its similar to how people will complain about the flyweights or whatever not having as many finishes in fights due to lack of power. Big guys can rely on just being bigger and the trade off is cardio and technique so one could argue that game planning and defense is much more critical to them than to ants who stand and wang. So does this mean the HW are superior in those areas? Its all in the wording of the topic. To me the GOAT better be the guy who will literally beat up all the other ones on the list, Fedor. If its worded most dominant then its more about winning streak, title defenses or finish rate so this could be GSP/Aldo or whoever.
Cain Velasquez beats up everyone on that list.
 

La Paix

Fuck this place
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
38,256
64,392
Is Cain mentioned in the GOAT talk often? I think you have to be in the pile first then ask who the best there no? Cain vs Fedor would ne one of the best fights ever so its too bad the timing was off. If the Brock vs Fedor fight took place and Brock won that wouldn't make Brock GOAT. Some steps to getting in the GOAT talk imo would be having a legendary career by beating the best available, have a long winning streak, finish guys, fight an exciting style. Once all that is done your in the debate.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
24,348
31,961
I sucked Stillmatics WOODley;n29047 said:
Is Cain mentioned in the GOAT talk often? I think you have to be in the pile first then ask who the best there no? Cain vs Fedor would ne one of the best fights ever so its too bad the timing was off. If the Brock vs Fedor fight took place and Brock won that wouldn't make Brock GOAT. Some steps to getting in the GOAT talk imo would be having a legendary career by beating the best available, have a long winning streak, finish guys, fight an exciting style. Once all that is done your in the debate.
You want your cake and to eat it too. Either it is about who wins in a fight and in that situation, if Brock did beat Fedor, then yes he would be considered better than Fedor. However, if it is about achievements then, no just beating Fedor without the achievements, wouldn't be enough - under the right circumstances. You can't judge by achievements to get in the argument and then decided it by saying who would win in a fight, because they are all have different circumstances surrounding their fights and achievements to put them into context.
 

La Paix

Fuck this place
First 100
Jan 14, 2015
38,256
64,392
Zeph;n29079 said:
You want your cake and to eat it too. Either it is about who wins in a fight and in that situation, if Brock did beat Fedor, then yes he would be considered better than Fedor. However, if it is about achievements then, no just beating Fedor without the achievements, wouldn't be enough - under the right circumstances. You can't judge by achievements to get in the argument and then decided it by saying who would win in a fight, because they are all have different circumstances surrounding their fights and achievements to put them into context.

I see your point there, fair enough. If Conor beats Aldo is he all the sudden in the GOAT talks?is Weidman in the GOAT talks? I say no to both. The GOAT and P4P talk will never be factual and its been beat to death everywhere. I still stand by my opinions and criteria all though I do see what you're saying.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
24,348
31,961
I sucked Stillmatics WOODley;n29200 said:
I see your point there, fair enough. If Conor beats Aldo is he all the sudden in the GOAT talks?is Weidman in the GOAT talks? I say no to both. The GOAT and P4P talk will never be factual and its been beat to death everywhere. I still stand by my opinions and criteria all though I do see what you're saying.
If Conor beats Aldo he doesn't have the achievements to be in the discussion, but he would have the potential. Not to mention it removes Aldo from winning the discussion, unless he can avenge the loss. Weidman is another one with the potential to be in the talks, he beat Silva twice and if he carries on winning, it will be a question of how long and how impressive his career is, not whether he would beat a heavyweight in a fight. GOAT talks should be about achievements, not who would beat who in fight.
 

D241

Banned
Jan 14, 2015
4,384
4,742
Zeph;n29019 said:
So now it is about what have you done? You just said it was who was going to win a fight. If it is what have you done, then I made my case for Aldo. If it is who would win in a fight then my pick is Cain Velasquez.

besides fighting in a more modern mma, what has Cain done to make you think he would be the favorite over Fedor?