What makes one "Greater" than Fedor?

[D241]

So now it is about what have you done? You just said it was who was going to win a fight. If it is what have you done, then I made my case for Aldo. If it is who would win in a fight then my pick is Cain Velasquez.

You blew my mind with that Aldo is only 28 bring up. Holy Shit man. I had to check to make sure you were right, that just seems so young considering how long he's been at the top.

Anyways, lets go back to debating based on the standards/guidelines you set.

You say it's what Aldo has done. One can't do anything more in fighting other than beating quality opponents agreed?

So that being said, lets take this debate one more step.

Please list your choice of either Jose Aldo's
top 5
top 10
or top 15
opponents he beat. Sounds to me like your argument of Goat being based on what you have done, would be to list the guys he beat, is that fair(I'll let you answer this before holding you obligated to list opponents)

 

[Mertvaya Ruka]

Are you saying Randy, or Mir, or Brock, or Carwin, or Cain, or JDS are "Greater" than Fedor?

You keep discrediting Fedor, but I'm wanting to know who you think has done greater. Can you tell me?

No, I'm not saying these guys were better than Fedor. We'll actually never know because Fedor spent 5 years avoiding the UFC.

Personally, I think GSP has a better claim at GOAT status at the moment, the sport is young and someone might surpass him, Jones is on track to do that.

Actually, Jones has the potential to put the whole silly GOAT talk to rest if he continues to dominate like he does right now, which is likely.

 

[ShatsBassoon]

Seeing as how D seems to ignoring this post i will quote it just in case he missed it.

This is before GSP's last title fight against Hendricks.

Georges “Rush” St-Pierre (age 32):
 Won 11 UFC title fights (tied for 1st place[url]http://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/title-wins/*Source[/URL]), 8 of those were defenses (2nd place[url]http://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/title-defenses/*Source[/URL]). His record in UFC title fights is 11-2.
 Georges is guaranteed to be a UFC champion for over 6 years and 3 months (multiple title reigns)(2nd place[url]http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Georges-St-Pierre*Source[/URL])
 Georges won 18 fights in the UFC (tied for 1st place[url]http://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/most-wins/*Source[/URL])
 St-Pierre's UFC win percentage is .900 (18 wins in 20 fights); his overall win percentage is .923 (24 wins in 26 fights[url]http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Georges-St-Pierre*Source[/URL]). Both percentages are better than Fedor and Anderson
 GSP’s longest consecutive win streak in the UFC was 11 (tied for 2nd place[url]http://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/consecutive-wins/*Source[/URL])

Strength of schedule:
 Georges had 13 UFC title bouts (2nd place[url]http://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/title-bouts/*Source[/URL]). 58% of the fights in his entire professional career have been for a title (15 title fights out of 26 total fights)
 GSP has 16 wins against opponents that were ranked in the top 5 at the time of the fight (1st place[url]http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f2/gsp-most-top-5-wins-hendo-most-top-10-wins-2483907/*CoffeeandBeer's thread[/URL])
 Georges has 16 wins against opponents that were ranked in the top 10 at the time of the fight (tied for 1st place[url]http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f2/documented-top-ten-wins-mma-fighters-pride-ufc-2166169/*Rester's thread[/URL])
 St-Pierre’s record vs. current/future UFC hall of famers is 4 wins and 1 loss (2-0 vs. BJ Penn, and 2-1 vs. Matt Hughes) [url]http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Georges-St-Pierre*Source[/URL]
 GSP has 6 wins against former UFC champs (Hughes 2x, BJ 2x, Condit, and Serra) [url]http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Georges-St-Pierre*Source[/URL]. Sherk hadn’t been a UFC champion at the time of his fight with Georges.
 He defeated 3 BJJ world medalists (BJ 2x, Serra, Shields), an NCAA D1 national wrestling champ (Kos 2x), the best MMA bottom game (Condit, Diaz), the best MMA top game (Hughes 2x, Fitch, Shields), the best judoka (Karo), the best kickboxers (Alves, Condit), and the best boxers (BJ, Nick) at WW [url]http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Georges-St-Pierre*Source[/URL]
 He routed seven fighters that have received votes on the Yahoo writers poll for P4P best – including Hughes (2x), Fitch, Baby Jay (2x), Alves, Shields, Condit, and Diaz. No other champ in the history of their P4P poll can say that
 GSP finished the phenomenal double digit win streaks of Fitch (16[url]http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Jon-Fitch-4865*Source[/URL]), Shields (15[url]http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Jake-Shields-502*Source[/URL]), and Sherk (12[url]http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Sean-Sherk-277*Source[/URL])

Other Significant Stats:
 Future hall of famer (first ballot)
 Professional MMA career: 11+ years (January 25, 2002 – TBD)[url]http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Georges-St-Pierre*Source[/URL]
 Won a total of 5 UFC of the night bonuses[url]http://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-of-the-night-bonuses/*Source[/URL]: FOTN 3x, SOTN 1x, KOTN 1x
 Rank on the UFC’s official top 10 significant stats lists (most well rounded):
Striking

• Total strikes landed - 2,398 (1st place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])
• Significant strikes landed - 1,153 (1st place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])
• Knockdowns landed - 8 (tied for 8th place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])
• Significant strike defense - 75.1% (3rd place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])
• Strikes absorbed per minute - 1.27 (tied for 8th place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])
• Strike differential - 2.53 (5th place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])

Wrestling[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cgrWPXLeOc*Click here[/URL]

• Takedowns landed - 84 (1st place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])
• Takedown accuracy - 75% (1st place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])
• Takedown defense - 88% (4th place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])

BJJ

• Most guard passes (1st place[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koCBxtoZnj4*Source[/URL])
• Submissions attempted - 22 (7th place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])

 Total fight time in the UFC – experience in the octagon (tied for 1st place[url]http://www.fightmetric.com/ufcrecords.php*Source[/URL])
 St-Pierre won 33 consecutive rounds in the UFC (1st place[url]http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ki-iole_georges_st_pierre_win_streak_ufc_129_042811*Source[/URL])
 Georges is the only current/future hall of fame legendary champion that can say he holds wins over every opponent he has ever faced (avenged all losses)[url]http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Georges-St-Pierre*Source[/URL]
 All-time bestselling MMA PPV King (and it's not even close) – real fans vote with their wallets and the message is clear[url]http://www.mmaweekly.com/dana-white-on-gsps-return-the-king-of-pay-per-view-is-back*Dana White[/URL]
 At UFC 129, he headlined a card that set the North American MMA attendance record and the worldwide live gate record for an MMA event[url]http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/...-and-live-gate-records-55724-for-12-1-million*Source[/URL]
 UFC Compensation: GSP “Game Over” money[url]http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mma/2012/11/16/georges-st-pierre-business-ufc-154/1710747/*Dana White[/URL]

Source: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f2/historical-significance-gsps-next-fight-updated-2504741/

 

[D241]

This is before GSP's last title fight against Hendricks.

Georges “Rush” St-Pierre (age 32):
 Won 11 UFC title fights (tied for 1st place*Source), 8 of those were defenses (2nd place*Source). His record in UFC title fights is 11-2.
 Georges is guaranteed to be a UFC champion for over 6 years and 3 months (multiple title reigns)(2nd place*Source)
 Georges won 18 fights in the UFC (tied for 1st place*Source)
 St-Pierre's UFC win percentage is .900 (18 wins in 20 fights); his overall win percentage is .923 (24 wins in 26 fights*Source). Both percentages are better than Fedor and Anderson
 GSP’s longest consecutive win streak in the UFC was 11 (tied for 2nd place*Source)

Strength of schedule:
 Georges had 13 UFC title bouts (2nd place*Source). 58% of the fights in his entire professional career have been for a title (15 title fights out of 26 total fights)
 GSP has 16 wins against opponents that were ranked in the top 5 at the time of the fight (1st place*CoffeeandBeer's thread)
 Georges has 16 wins against opponents that were ranked in the top 10 at the time of the fight (tied for 1st place*Rester's thread)

 GSP has 6 wins against former UFC champs (Hughes 2x, BJ 2x, Condit, and Serra) *Source. Sherk hadn’t been a UFC champion at the time of his fight with Georges.
 He defeated 3 BJJ world medalists (BJ 2x, Serra, Shields), an NCAA D1 national wrestling champ (Kos 2x), the best MMA bottom game (Condit, Diaz), the best MMA top game (Hughes 2x, Fitch, Shields), the best judoka (Karo), the best kickboxers (Alves, Condit), and the best boxers (BJ, Nick) at WW
 GSP finished the phenomenal double digit win streaks of Fitch (16*Source), Shields (15*Source), and Sherk (12*Source)


Georges is the only current/future hall of fame legendary champion that can say he holds wins over every opponent he has ever faced (avenged all losses)*Source

I edited the post to leave in the significant actual fighter accomplishments. You had quite a bit of fluff I needed to take out.

Here is my rebuttal to the legit bring ups mentioned above.
Fedor:
Opponents wins: 643
GSP:
Opponents wins: 524

Fedor:
1st round finishes: 27
GSP:
1st round finishes:7

Fedor:
Finishing Rate: 76%
GSP:
Finishing Rate:52%

Fedor:
Win Streak: 27
GSP:
Win Streak:12

Fedor:
Win Streak Span: 9 yrs 6 mth
GSP
Win Streak Span:6 yrs 4 mth

Fedor:
Fight per year: 3.0
GSP:
Fight per year:2.3

One fought at heavyweight back when there wasn't even a 265lb cap
The other fought at 170lbs his entire career.
Tell me more how a guy 5'10 170lbs(after cutting weigiht) is so much greater than a guy 5'11 230lbs fighting the biggest toughest guys in the world, doing it for longer, more convincing, and more often.

 

[D241]

If my argument Fedor>GSP wasn't enough, let me ask you this

Prime Fedor vs GSP's opponents, Fedor wins against all of them right?
Prime GSP vs Fedor's opponents, can you honestly tell me GSP beats them?

So what makes GSP greater? Because he beat up guys Fedor could also beat up?

 

[D241]

GSP's most skilled-
1.Wrestler-Johny Hendricks-NCAA Champion wrestler
2.Grappler-Jake Shields-Purplebelt Middleweight Gold at the Pan Am Championships/Bronze AdccMW MMA Champion in every promotion he's fought in except UFC, almost won that, also beat Demian Maia and won on the ground.
3.Striker-Carlos Condit, one of the best finishers in mma, fearsome attitude and versatile striking game, longtime title condender.
Fedor's most skilled-
1.Wrestler-Mark Coleman-NCAA Champion wrestler, Olympic wrestler, UFC Hw Champion, Pride GP Winner
2.Grappler-Antonio Nogueira-Two time Brownbelt HW Gold at the Pan Am Championships, Pride Hw Champion, UFC Hw Champion
3.Striker-Mirko Filipovic-Seasoned K1 fighter with wins over many big names. Arguably most feared striker at his peak.

1-Fedor. Not only are his opponent's credentials more impressive, he's bigger, and Fedor won the fight on the ground, as well as finished him twice. GSP however, I wouldn't say won the fight, nor lost it. It was razor thin and I can't say either man established an undeniable advantage.

#2-While Jake Shields and Nog are arguably equally accomplished in bjj competition, I think the harder man to beat between the two when you take into account both skill and size, is Big Nog. Also add the fact that Fedor fought most the fight in Nog's realm and dominated, GSP kept the fight mostly stand up, and was given a judges decison on rounds won.

#3-While other's might pick Hunt or Schilt or Arvloski or Choi, I picked Mirko as he was at his absolute peak and was devestating people with his striking. Fedor fought that fight mostly on the stand up, and won. I feel Condit is highly underrated as a fighter and striker, and because of that, I actually give GSP a lot of credit as he did pretty good in the stand up. But in terms of how Fedor did vs Striker Mirk comapred to GSP vs Striker Condit, Fedor.

Striking breakdown-
GSP-The two best guys GSP koed who were good-great at striking were Serra and Penn. GSP took Serra down won via strikes, but they were on the ground. GSP took BJ down and tired him out(good gameplan), and then jabbed him up before taking him down and tagging him up more on the ground. He didn't tko him during the rounds.

Fedor-Knocked out striker specialist Pedro Rizzo in under 2 minutes. Arvloski was riding a 5 fight win streak coming off 3 knock out finishes. Fedor knocked him out in the first round. Brett Rogers was 10-0 with 10ko's, just koed Arvloski in 20 seconds. Fedor knocked him out in the 2nd round.

Grappling-Fedor submitted Matt Lindland and Kazuyuki Fujita. GSP submitted Frank Trigg and Matt Hughes.
That's actually pretty even when you put it like that. Take into account Fujita rocked Fedor, take into account Hughes has a sub win over GSP, I think Grappling could be considered as a slight edge to Fedor.

 

[ShatsBassoon]

If my argument Fedor>GSP wasn't enough, let me ask you this

Prime Fedor vs GSP's opponents, Fedor wins against all of them right?
Prime GSP vs Fedor's opponents, can you honestly tell me GSP beats them?

So what makes GSP greater? Because he beat up guys Fedor could also beat up?

So this a p4p argument now? Are we discussing hypothetical situations or are we discussing what makes a fighter greater than Fedor?
I presented you GSP's stats, records and accomplishments some which i doubt will ever be matched.
Here's another piece of trivia that is fact not "what if" GSP is undefeated i organisations outside the UFC how did Fedor do outside of pride?
Fedor couldn't hang with modern day fighters due to the talent differential. GSP fought guys with a much higher skill set. That is fact regardless how you compare Mark Hunt to Carlos Condit.
Ghe way you press t your arguments

 

[ShatsBassoon]

I couldn't page down on my text to correct my sentence but it should read as- the way you present your argument is silly. We may as well be discussing who is faster superman and the flash.

 

[D241]

You can forget about the last two post, the first one on page 5, and last one on page 4, and instead just compare the accomplishments GSP has, and the ones I listed.
GSP's accomplishments speak for themselves. He is arguably the greatest ww of all time. There are few fighters who he takes a back seat to, very few. It just so happens we're talking about Fedor here.

That being said, please focus on my 2nd to last post on page 4 as I fully acknowledge GSP's accomplishments.

 

[D241]

Here's another piece of trivia that is fact not "what if" GSP is undefeated i organisations outside the UFC how did Fedor do outside of pride?

Here's a cool piece of trivia. GSP has 19 wins in the UFC.
Fedor has fought 19 guys who either before, or after fighting him, were in the UFC.

 

[D241]

I couldn't page down on my text to correct my sentence but it should read as- the way you present your argument is silly. We may as well be discussing who is faster superman and the flash.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10151906546816843&pnref=story

 

[La Paix]

Fedor vs GSP, this is good shit here on both sides. Feels good to in a bad way to be able to leave out AS. I love both Fighters presented here.

 

[ShatsBassoon]

GSP>Shields>Henderson>Fedor.
I also noticed you were comparing 3 fight streaks on that other site. Lets compare their last 3 fights respectively.
Condit, Diaz, Hendricks.
Monson, Rizzo, Ishii.

 

[Mertvaya Ruka]

GSP simply has more top 10 wins than Fedor. Silva has more top 10 wins than Fedor. Even Nog and Henderson are tied or have like 1 more top 10 win than Fedor.

It's all about who they fought at what time and the consistency.

lol @ listing a retired Pedro Rizzo on your list.

Those lists were researched and posted on sherdog over the years. Top 10 status was given when looking at various legit sites at the time the fights happened.

George St-Pierre

1. Pete Spratt (WW)
2. Karo Parisyan (WW)
3. Frank Trigg (WW)
4. Sean Sherk (WW)
5. B.J. Penn (WW)
6. Matt Hughes (WW)
7. Josh Koscheck (WW)
8. Matt Hughes (WW)
9. Matt Serra (WW)
10. Jon Fitch (WW)
11. Thiago Alves (WW)
12. Dan Hardy (WW)
13. Josh Koscheck (WW)
14. Jake Shields (WW)
15. Carlos Condit (WW)
16. Nick Diaz (WW)
17. Johny Hendricks (WW)

--

Anderson Silva

1. Tetsuji Kato (WW)
2. Hayato Sakurai (WW)
3. Alex Stiebling (MW)
4. Jeremy Horn (MW)
5. Lee Murray (MW)
6. Rich Franklin (MW)
7. Nate Marquardt (MW)
8. Rich Franklin (MW)
9. Dan Henderson (MW)
10. Thales Leites (MW)
11. Forrest Griffin (LHW)
12. Demian Maia (MW)
13. Chael Sonnen (MW)
14. Vitor Belfort (MW)
15. Yushin Okami (MW)
16. Chael Sonnen (MW)

X. Carlos Newton (ranked WW, fought at MW)

Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira

1. Valentijn Overeem (second fight) (HW)
2. Mark Coleman (HW)
3. Heath Herring (HW)
4. Semmy Schilt ("super"HW)
5. Ricco Rodriguez (HW)
6. Mirko Filipović (HW)
7. Heath Herring (HW)
8. Sergei Kharitonov (HW)
9. Fabricio Werdum (HW)
10. Josh Barnett (HW)
11. Tim Sylvia ("super"HW)
12. Randy Couture (HW)
13. Brendan Schaub (HW)

Dan Henderson

1. Gilbert Yvel (HW)
2. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (HW)
3. Renato Sobral (HW)
4. Renzo Gracie (MW)
5. Yuki Kondo (LHW)
6. Akihiro Gono (MW)
7. Murilo Bustamante (MW)
8. Wanderlei Silva (LHW)
9. Rich Franklin (LHW)
10. Rafael Cavalcante (LHW)
11. Fedor Emelianenko (HW)
12. Mauricio Rua (LHW)
13. Mauricio Rua (LHW

Fedor Emelianenko

1. Semmy Schilt ("super"HW)
2. Heath Herring (HW)
3. Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira
4. Kazuyuki Fujita
5. Mark Coleman (first fight)
6. Kevin Randleman
7. Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira (HW)
8. Mirko Filipovic (HW)
9. Mark Hunt ("super"HW)
10. Tim Sylvia ("super"HW)
11. Andrei Arlovski (HW)
12. Brett Rogers ("super"HW)

 

[La Paix]

GSP>Shields>Henderson>Fedor.
I also noticed you were comparing 3 fight streaks on that other site. Lets compare their last 3 fights respectively.
Condit, Diaz, Hendricks.
Monson, Rizzo, Ishii.

Jardine>Liddel>Randleman>Crocop

Mma math is a weak tool.

 

[Anno Domini]

Well Fedor is my favorite fighter of all time hands down. But a lot people Fedor fought against had losing records at the time, not everyone. Also Pride was corrupt, no drug testing, freak show fights, fixed fights and so on. Fedor greatest wins were Big Nog , Cro Cop ,Sylvia , and Arlovski. one could say if Fedor didn't hold the ropes in his fight against Lindland he would have had his first loss.

It didn't help his stock any when Fedor jumped to Strikeforce. Barely beat Rodgers , loss to Werdum , Bigfoot then lhw / mw Henderson.

Its all about the competition you fought in the era imo.. Beat i'm going to get some hate for this post. Oh well haha.

sorry for the bad grammar everyone! If someone wants to crucify me for it have fun .

 

[La Paix]

^^^^ How is a second round KO = barely beat? If it went to any sort of decision sure but...

 

[D241]

Jardine>Liddel>Randleman>Crocop

Mma math is a weak tool.

Thanks for sparing me the time. I was going to do the same example but with Chonan or Takasi.

 

[D241]

Well Fedor is my favorite fighter of all time hands down. But a lot people Fedor fought against had losing records at the time, not everyone. Also Pride was corrupt, no drug testing, freak show fights, fixed fights and so on. Fedor greatest wins were Big Nog , Cro Cop ,Sylvia , and Arlovski. one could say if Fedor didn't hold the ropes in his fight against Lindland he would have had his first loss.

It didn't help his stock any when Fedor jumped to Strikeforce. Barely beat Rodgers , loss to Werdum , Bigfoot then lhw / mw Henderson.

Its all about the competition you fought in the era imo.. Beat i'm going to get some hate for this post. Oh well haha.

sorry for the bad grammar everyone! If someone wants to crucify me for it have fun .

Hard to hate on you, you have a fun vibe to your post. I completely disagree with it, but still.

 

[The Tomahawk Murderer]

Fedor spent more time on his back in his fight against Bigfoot Silva than GSP has his entire career.
e.

That's because Fedor wasn't afraid to take on guys who were twice his size while GSP was pissing himself over the idea of fighting a Middleweight., even though if you took the fat and non functional weight off of Fedor, he would be similarly sized to GSP.

Which is why I'll always place him ahead of GSP.

 

[ShatsBassoon]

^relevant username

 

[D241]

So Shats, after you provided your list of things GSP has done, and then I pointed out the things GSP has done, where do you currently stand in terms of who is greater, GSP or Fedor?

If GSP, can you give a shorter explanation as to what specifically makes him greater? Thanks.

 

[Mertvaya Ruka]

So Shats, after you provided your list of things GSP has done, and then I pointed out the things GSP has done, where do you currently stand in terms of who is greater, GSP or Fedor?

If GSP, can you give a shorter explanation as to what specifically makes him greater? Thanks.

How about you reply to my post? Or is it too inconvenient?

Top 10 wins, that's a legit metric to use.

 

[La Paix]

Fedor

2002
Semmy Schilt (10)
Heath Herring (4)
2003
Antonio Nogueira (1)
2004
Kevin Randleman (8* at LHW)
Antonio Nogueira (2)
2005
Mirko Crocop (3)
2006
Mark Hunt (9)
2007
Matt Lindland (1* at middleweight)
2008
Tim Sylvia (4)
2009
Andrei Arvloski (3)
Brett Rogers (6)

11 top 10 wins
6 top 5 wins (in his weight class)

 

[D241]

How about you reply to my post? Or is it too inconvenient?

Top 10 wins, that's a legit metric to use.

That's fair.
But lets not use a 3rd party opinion for our own opinion, meaning in a debate with you, I'd rather go off your opinion of who the best 10 fighters were.

That being said, please list GSP's top 10 wins of his career. I will do the same with Fedor.