Do u think Kimbo/Shamrock was a work?
- Thread starter teamquestnorth
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See Bob Sapp. Not KO, but obvious gives.
KO is the key. No one agrees to get knocked out. Kimbo was about to break his face if John didn't step in.
We both see the elephant, but youre describing it on one side, me on the other. Same elephant. We shall see how it plays out.
How a certain person escaped a choke, and why it isn't necessarily evidence the fight was "fixed." : MMAI've seen some requests for a breakdown of how Kimbo escaped a seemingly very tight RNC by Shamrock en-route to winning their fight. The implication here seems to be that if Ken, a specialist in grappling for approximately the age of the universe, failed to finish a choke which was clearly there for the taking, it must be because he threw the fight.
First off, let me say I can't be 100% sure that Shamrock didn't want to lose that fight for one reason or another. In fact, my knee-jerk reaction to seeing it on TV was the same as a lot of people's, which was that something fishy was going on. But, having watched it again in slow motion, I'm now pretty confident that Ken was honestly trying to choke out Kimbo, but failed due to a combination of poor technique choice and good defensive tactics on Kimbo's part.
The trouble of course started with Ken's face-down back mount of Kimbo with both hooks in. Once he achieved this position, Ken starts off doing everything right: he uses a really mean cross-face on Kimbo's nose to raise Kimbo's chin, then slips his forearm underneath:
[1]
Seeing the above image, it's completely understandable to assume that Kimbo is done. Shamrock has his forearm flush against Kimbo's trachea, with no chin (or beard) in the way. Put simply, Kimbo is in deep shit here, or at least he would be, if Ken had not tried to finish the choke the way he did:
[2]
The problem here is the angle. Shamrock's right elbow is resting on Kimbo's right shoulder, when it should be directly under his Adam's apple. If Ken's elbow was centered, then squeezing like he's doing would put pressure on both of Kimbo's carotids using Ken's bicep and forearm. But as it is, all he's doing is pressing on Kimbo's windpipe, which despite being excruciatingly painful (judging from the look on Kimbo's face), wasn't cutting off the circulation to his brain.
For Ken to re-center the choke here is a tricky business. The problem is, due to the aforementioned angle and the bulky glove getting in his way, Ken's non-choking hand is stuck on Kimbo's forehead, instead of behind Kimbo's neck where it should be. This not only lessens the power of Ken's squeeze, but it gives Kimbo a convenient handle to pull himself free as soon as Ken loosens up to re-adjust his grip. So at this point, it seems reasonable to assume that Ken thought he'd have a better chance at just wailing as hard as he could with an imperfect choke, than trying for a better one and losing everything.
A much better solution for Ken would have been to use the variation of the RNC which uses a gable grip instead of the "classic" figure four grip. Surprisingly, this variation wasn't taught much in BJJ circles until relatively recently, when it was popularized by Marcelo Garcia (those inclined can see him using it a lot in this video[3] ). However, for applications in an MMA context, one cannot find a better example than Demian Maia's insane choke-out of Rick Story:
[4]
Notice here how Maia's elbow is "off-center," similar to Ken's. But due to the change of grip and the direction he's applying pressure (to be precise, he's pulling his right elbow backward instead of squeezing his elbows together), Maia has turned Story's chin to his right, effectively re-centering the choke without changing his body orientation.
Anyway, what happened next in the Ken vs. Kimbo fight is very much to Kimbo's credit. He did exactly what he should have: grabbed Ken's exposed hand on his forehead and pulled it down, while simultaneously rolling onto his left side:
[5]
Being on the left side is important because Shamrock is choking with his right arm. While it's not impossible to finish a RNC when your opponent is lying on the opposite side, it's much easier on the choker to have their choking arm on the bottom, because any attempt by the chokee to roll toward his attacker to escape will cause the choke to tighten, rather than unwind (and rolling away from the attacker will usually just put them back in a belly-down back mount).
More importantly though, once Kimbo has a grip on Shamrock's other arm, the choke is essentially gone. One-armed rear nakeds do exist, but I've never seen one pulled off in serious competition when an opponent has control of one of the attacker's limbs.
Now, there has been some talk about how Shamrock made Kimbo's escape easier by crossing his ankles, thus taking away the hooks and letting Kimbo roll. In BJJ, crossing the ankles in that position is considered a major fuck-up, as it enables a rather painful counter ankle lock, but the reality of the situation is a bit more of a gray area (at a high level, I have seen guys cross their ankles so that their opponent focuses on trying to ankle lock them instead of remembering to defend the choke, and one mustn't forget, as demonstrated above, that causing someone a lot of pain isn't always a way to win the fight). But the fact is, once Ken's other arm is compromised to that degree, with Kimbo already near getting his back on the mat, Shamrock can't do anything to save the position, hooks or no hooks. Shamrock sees this coming and makes a game attempt to switch into the mount, but is ultimately out-wrestled (or out-muscled) by Kimbo, and the rest is history.
So, returning to the original question, is this whole wall of text evidence in favor of or against Ken throwing the fight? I guess that depends on your assessment of him and his abilities.
Look at Demian Maia: he spent years training only for grappling, winning the BJJ Pan Ams and ADCC, putting out instructional DVD sets about the latest developments in BJJ, and sparring with Marcelo Garcia[6] . Crucially, he usually trains in grappling wearing MMA gloves, because he is aware of how the gloves prevent certain techniques from working and wants to make sure his instinct is to use technique variations which work around them.
Now compare to Shamrock. Ken is a legend, but he's old school. He learned the rear naked choke sometime in the Pleistocene epoch and has likely been tapping guys in the gym ever since with chokes very much like the one he put on Kimbo, because most gym guys don't want to experience the kind of pain Kimbo went through. While Ken has probably encountered and learned six dozen RNC variations in his time, there's a big difference between "knowing" a technique and really drilling it to the point where it becomes an automatic reaction during a time of intense stress.
So what's more likely? That Ken fell back on a move he's familiar with but which uses brute force, and Kimbo toughed it out and took advantage to escape, or that Ken saw an opportunity to finish using the gable grip, but decided instead to use an extremely painful but lower-percentage finish in order to give Kimbo the chance to escape, and thus throw the fight?
You decide.
![UFC_JH_2012-10-13_3512[1].jpg](https://tmmacattach.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/data/attachments/3/3538-7634a799626bc614a22f470b47249de5.jpg "UFC_JH_2012-10-13_3512[1].jpg")
Where's the "No more stupid fights that were never going to live up and likely to, legitimately or otherwise, involve stupid stupidity" option?
Tito is the limit of legend status/age I can deal with, and his McGeary frowny stutter talk about USA and belts is pushing my limits on that.
Enough Bellator. The rest of that card were great high quality fights, Even Lashley more than usual. These rotten cheese bag cherries are trying my patience.
Tito is the limit of legend status/age I can deal with, and his McGeary frowny stutter talk about USA and belts is pushing my limits on that.
Enough Bellator. The rest of that card were great high quality fights, Even Lashley more than usual. These rotten cheese bag cherries are trying my patience.
Has Ken ever been a RNC specialist? IMHO he's always been a guy who's tough, with great athleticism and exposure to the submission game before a lot of others. He's never been a technical whiz.
Shooting from across the cage makes a lot of sense. The guy feared for his life and doesn't have the youth to stand in the pocket and make a level change.
Kimbo's (lack of) takedown defence doesn't seem unrealistic either. He looked like he hadn't trained seriously for the fight and he doesn't have any kind of grappling background.
In summary, I don't think it was a work. I just think it was an old, small guy who used to rely on athleticism vs a big guy who's major skill seems to be punching hard.
Shooting from across the cage makes a lot of sense. The guy feared for his life and doesn't have the youth to stand in the pocket and make a level change.
Kimbo's (lack of) takedown defence doesn't seem unrealistic either. He looked like he hadn't trained seriously for the fight and he doesn't have any kind of grappling background.
In summary, I don't think it was a work. I just think it was an old, small guy who used to rely on athleticism vs a big guy who's major skill seems to be punching hard.
EXPLAINS WHY HE THINKS KIMBO SLICE VS KEN SHAMROCK WAS "FAKE AS F*CK"
There was something fishy about the main event at Bellator 138, according to UFC colour commentator Joe Rogan.
On Friday night, fight fans finally got to see the oldest rivalry in MMA get settled once and for all.
41-year-old viral video sensation Kimbo Slice brutally knocked out UFC vet and former pro wrestler Ken Shamrock in the first round.
However, Joe Rogan seems to think that the way the fight panned out was a bit suspect. Particularly the way that someone as skilled on the ground as Shamrock failed to lock in a submission on a novice like Slice while he had his back on the ground.
Check out Rogan giving his take on the "fake as f*ck" fight in the video embedded below.
There was something fishy about the main event at Bellator 138, according to UFC colour commentator Joe Rogan.
On Friday night, fight fans finally got to see the oldest rivalry in MMA get settled once and for all.
41-year-old viral video sensation Kimbo Slice brutally knocked out UFC vet and former pro wrestler Ken Shamrock in the first round.
However, Joe Rogan seems to think that the way the fight panned out was a bit suspect. Particularly the way that someone as skilled on the ground as Shamrock failed to lock in a submission on a novice like Slice while he had his back on the ground.
Check out Rogan giving his take on the "fake as f*ck" fight in the video embedded below.
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Because a work is only obvious to the wise people of the Internet, not to the show producers or people in charge of putting on these productions.
The reason this is even an issue is because of Gary Shaw's son and Ken Shamrock, as well as MMA fans unwillingness to let anything go.
Conspiracy theorists will conspire. Bias you say? Explain that.
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Im up in the air on this one...The second TD ken got looked fishy...Honestly the choke scenario s a HOT topic...And I can def see where this is thought to be where most think Ken could have and should have finished...When he had pulled Kimbo back into him it looked like it was in DEEP...but Ken not switching to the Gable grip shocked me...
Either he was overly anxious and didn't apply proper technique or adjusted and it slipped off...Honestly I think it was 2 old guys hyped in the moment and it turned into a very sloppy display of fighting...So im leaving towards sloppiness more than WORK...Great card though..
Either he was overly anxious and didn't apply proper technique or adjusted and it slipped off...Honestly I think it was 2 old guys hyped in the moment and it turned into a very sloppy display of fighting...So im leaving towards sloppiness more than WORK...Great card though..
Keep trying. You arent even on the same page. Yawn.
Yeah, that is about all you have. Good going.You're probably right.
It's all I need to have against conspiracy theories.
It'll be interesting to see how long these gents keep kayfabe.
Absolutely NOT a work. First of all, Rogan works for Bellator's competition, so he's always looking to shit on them. Joe Rogan questions everything...but the UFC. He needs to lay off the weed.
Ken Shamrock summed up the fight perfectly afterwards. He hasn't fought in five years, is 51 years old and got over-excited when he got the choke. He rushed it and lost position. And like he said, he knew he was slow in the scrambles and that was the last place he wanted to be, but that's where he was and he got caught.
Kimbo has terrible take down defense and so Ken was able to take him down. He may get another fight in Bellator but he won't get another win.
MMA fans always go full retard when Ken fights. This time is no different.
Ken Shamrock summed up the fight perfectly afterwards. He hasn't fought in five years, is 51 years old and got over-excited when he got the choke. He rushed it and lost position. And like he said, he knew he was slow in the scrambles and that was the last place he wanted to be, but that's where he was and he got caught.
Kimbo has terrible take down defense and so Ken was able to take him down. He may get another fight in Bellator but he won't get another win.
MMA fans always go full retard when Ken fights. This time is no different.
Out of 7 mma fights Kimbo has had 3 that are questionable.
1. October 4, 2008, Seth Petruzelli - This was a blatant attempt at a work but it backfired. Seth was a last minute replacement for Shamrock the first time Kimbo and Shamrock were supposed to fight in EliteXC. After Seth KO'ed Kimbo he stated Elite asked him to not take Kimbo down and keep it standing. He said he was offered a bonus if he kept it standing. Of course it backfired on them and I'm glad it did.
2. December 5, 2009, Houston Alexander - This fight was a complete work with C-level, horrible acting. This was the last time Houston ever fought in the UFC, by the way. Even the UFC knew it was a work, whether they knew beforehand is debatable.
3. June 19, 2015, Ken Shamrock - This fight was simply an easy money fight for everyone involved. Neither Kimbo or Shamrock had fought in 5 years. This was a fight Bellator dreamed up because they knew people would be naive enough to buy the card solely based on fighter name recognition.
Anyone who watched the fight should immediately be questioning how Ken got that sloppy, slow take down. The only way it happens is if Kimbo was following the script. It was the first major move of the fight to add "authenticity" for the rest of the work. Ken, the submission specialist, had to take him down and apply a submission at some point or the fight would have been less believable and when you're going to work a fight, building up drama is always best if the actors are capable of doing so.
So Kimbo gives Ken his neck and it's a tight choke, under Kimbo's neck but Ken somehow loses his grip (oh the drama) and has to let up on the choke (he probably realized he was choking Kimbo too hard and that wasn't part of the script). Kimbo survives the choke by sheer will power and submission defense and finally they get back to standing. Kimbo then lands a punch in which the ref immediately runs over to stop the fight.
1. October 4, 2008, Seth Petruzelli - This was a blatant attempt at a work but it backfired. Seth was a last minute replacement for Shamrock the first time Kimbo and Shamrock were supposed to fight in EliteXC. After Seth KO'ed Kimbo he stated Elite asked him to not take Kimbo down and keep it standing. He said he was offered a bonus if he kept it standing. Of course it backfired on them and I'm glad it did.
2. December 5, 2009, Houston Alexander - This fight was a complete work with C-level, horrible acting. This was the last time Houston ever fought in the UFC, by the way. Even the UFC knew it was a work, whether they knew beforehand is debatable.
3. June 19, 2015, Ken Shamrock - This fight was simply an easy money fight for everyone involved. Neither Kimbo or Shamrock had fought in 5 years. This was a fight Bellator dreamed up because they knew people would be naive enough to buy the card solely based on fighter name recognition.
Anyone who watched the fight should immediately be questioning how Ken got that sloppy, slow take down. The only way it happens is if Kimbo was following the script. It was the first major move of the fight to add "authenticity" for the rest of the work. Ken, the submission specialist, had to take him down and apply a submission at some point or the fight would have been less believable and when you're going to work a fight, building up drama is always best if the actors are capable of doing so.
So Kimbo gives Ken his neck and it's a tight choke, under Kimbo's neck but Ken somehow loses his grip (oh the drama) and has to let up on the choke (he probably realized he was choking Kimbo too hard and that wasn't part of the script). Kimbo survives the choke by sheer will power and submission defense and finally they get back to standing. Kimbo then lands a punch in which the ref immediately runs over to stop the fight.
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As in any crime, you need to examine the motive. Ken is as popular as Kimbo, if not more--why not make him the work winner?
If Kimbo can't legitimately beat Ken, what's the point? He will lose to just about anyone else he faces, unless all of his fights are going to be works, right up until he fights for the title. Kimbo was never good at takedown defense, and now that he's older and slower, he has no TDD.
You can say work about any fight. Why did Cain conveniently slip his head into Werdum's guillotine on a very telegraphed shot? WORK!
WTF
If Kimbo can't legitimately beat Ken, what's the point? He will lose to just about anyone else he faces, unless all of his fights are going to be works, right up until he fights for the title. Kimbo was never good at takedown defense, and now that he's older and slower, he has no TDD.
You can say work about any fight. Why did Cain conveniently slip his head into Werdum's guillotine on a very telegraphed shot? WORK!
WTF
Because Kimbo sells more tickets than Shamrock on name alone and he's 10 years younger and probably can fight a few more times and make everyone rich.
1. Not a work, they wanted an exciting fight because they knew Kimbo had zero ground game.
2.horrible fight, if it was a work that was the most embarrassing work ever.
3.a dude a half century old who hasn't fought/won in years couldn't finish the choke......then got hit with a sledge hammer to his head.
Imo
A promoter offers a fighter a bonus if they don't take an opponent down and to play directly into that opponents strength and that's not an attempt at a work? Seriously?