Don't trust me on this one as I'm extremely biased when it comes to Cro Cop.
Do u think Kimbo/Shamrock was a work?
- Thread starter teamquestnorth
- Start date
All I really mean to say is never underestimate what people will do for money. For some, punches, kicks, being KO'd is not the dealbreaker for the right price.
Hey guys.
I can't speak in any way to motivation, who/what/why anything might or might not be a work, etc.
I agree with Jimmy (Hi Jimmy!) and others that there's no way in hell that Bellator or Scott Coker would ever fix a fight. But other that that I have no thoughts to offer on the likelihood or motivation behind any possible fix or anything like that.
What I can speak to is the viz that I have watched and rewatched and analyzed.
I watch and analyze combat sports for a living and have watched and analyzed literally many thousands of hours of fight viz over the last 8 years. I have commentated almost 300 shows for DEEP, The Score Fighting Series, KSW, W-1, CFC, TSOF Canada, and a dozen other shows.
Ramdeen and I currently are re-calling, in English, all of the Classic Pancrase fights from the 90s to today. Including the brilliant one-sided works of Suzuki and Funaki (fights where their opponents were not in on it but the were so superior that they "carried" them to create storylines to sell the next event). We air them as "Vintage Pancrase" on Fight Network in 32 countries.
Here's some analysis:
Ken's single leg- Kimbo fell down without defending. He did not engage any musculature or physicality. Why? Only he knows. Brain fart?
Ken's choke- Ken's back was not engaged and he was using no power. He was not 'muscling' the choke in any way. There was no muscular engagement in his lats, triceps, teres major, infraspinatus or trapezius. We all agree the technique was poorly applied but comments about Ken 'muscling' the choke are incorrect, most of his muscles were not firing. Why? I can't tell you that.
This whole conversation actually makes me a bit uncomfortable and I think I'm just going to move on with my life and keep living in a world where I don't question these things.
I love Mixed Martial Arts so much, it is a sport of beauty and greatness.
Cheers guys.
Robin
I can't speak in any way to motivation, who/what/why anything might or might not be a work, etc.
I agree with Jimmy (Hi Jimmy!) and others that there's no way in hell that Bellator or Scott Coker would ever fix a fight. But other that that I have no thoughts to offer on the likelihood or motivation behind any possible fix or anything like that.
What I can speak to is the viz that I have watched and rewatched and analyzed.
I watch and analyze combat sports for a living and have watched and analyzed literally many thousands of hours of fight viz over the last 8 years. I have commentated almost 300 shows for DEEP, The Score Fighting Series, KSW, W-1, CFC, TSOF Canada, and a dozen other shows.
Ramdeen and I currently are re-calling, in English, all of the Classic Pancrase fights from the 90s to today. Including the brilliant one-sided works of Suzuki and Funaki (fights where their opponents were not in on it but the were so superior that they "carried" them to create storylines to sell the next event). We air them as "Vintage Pancrase" on Fight Network in 32 countries.
Here's some analysis:
Ken's single leg- Kimbo fell down without defending. He did not engage any musculature or physicality. Why? Only he knows. Brain fart?
Ken's choke- Ken's back was not engaged and he was using no power. He was not 'muscling' the choke in any way. There was no muscular engagement in his lats, triceps, teres major, infraspinatus or trapezius. We all agree the technique was poorly applied but comments about Ken 'muscling' the choke are incorrect, most of his muscles were not firing. Why? I can't tell you that.
This whole conversation actually makes me a bit uncomfortable and I think I'm just going to move on with my life and keep living in a world where I don't question these things.
I love Mixed Martial Arts so much, it is a sport of beauty and greatness.
Cheers guys.
Robin
Thanks for the input
@Robin Black , it is always valued here!Dun DUN DUNNNNNNNNN
man this whole conversation keeps getting stranger and stranger.
We all agree it was terrible technique. So do we also agree Bas Rutten Tapped out to a fake choke?
WWE sleeper hold imo
This is my argument
#1 - 3 out of 4 times in his MMA career attempting an RNC this was his technique. It worked the first 2 times why not the third. So if the choke is the reason for calling it a fix. Than certainly accusing Rutten and Mitchell of throwing fights is not out of the question. If we agree they did than Ken has thrown fights from day one. If they didn't than Ken just has crappy technique that didn't work 20 years after his last attempted RNC.
#2 the clinch
If I am to believe Ken and Kimbo planned to work the fight. Than I must also belive that prior to the cage shutting they only planned out the first 10 seconds. After an immediate takedown by shamrock Kimbo got right back to his feet extremely easily. Then the immediately clinch. To apparently plan the rest of the fight according to people calling out a fix. Never mind risking anyone including one of the most respected people in all MMA BJM hearing them. Perhaps both fighters were just to old to remember a 2 minute script.
#3 takedown #2
I know this is a long shot. Since Kimbo got up from the first takedown with ease. Is it not possible that he thought he could get up again using virtually no energy like the first one. Instead of using likely much more energy fighting off the takedown. Thinking a 51 year old man 30lbs lighter could not keep him down.
#4 Ken not throwing punches
He sunk in an attempted choke about a second after getting kimbo's back. It is not as if he observed the situation for a minute then went for the choke. Am I the only person that has seen this exact same situation unfold 100's of times in other fights? Or every time this has happened is the fighter not throwing punches working the fight?
You think so ZP? If that's your take on it, do you think Bellator knew of it...or it was a deal between Ken & Kimbo?
I gotta agree with this
I don't understand. You think it was only Ken?
All of this. Every single word. I've been just reading this thread on and off, I really can't believe this is a legit debate with McG/Aldo coming up in a few weeks. With an interim title fight between Werdum/Hunt. Mark Hunt? Ok. That's not enough proof that MMA promotions can make whatever fight they choose in spite of fan outrage? Chael freakin Sonnen vs Jon Jones. C'mon. But it's fun to read just for amusement because I honestly don't believe anyone can suspend logic that damn long.
And it's hard to tell who's about to go to sleep here. I bet from the opposite angle you can see Ken yawning.
WWE sleeper hold imo
QED. So much WTF in the choke sequence.
If you look at Ken's right arm, for a correctly applied RNC the elbow should line up with Kimbo's chin. Because its not lined up correctly it wouldnt properly cut of blood supply to the brain. The forearm digging into the throat isnt fun, but if you've felt it a few times you can definately deal with the pain. With this arm placement everytime your opponent moves it frees up just enough oxygen to keep them from going out.
WWE sleeper hold imo
I'm trying to recall Fedor's choke on Sylvia now, just because that was an air choke. Didn't he primarily use his forearm in that one? I remember being kind of astonished at how effective it was. Tim was also very dazed from punches though.
At first I was leaning towards it being a legit fight, mostly because of the big shot Ken took at the end, but after looking at Ken's career, he has at least 2 other fights that looked fishy (I haven't seen every fight he has ever had). 1. Matt Hume, that fight looked like a work for sure which leads to #2 Rich Franklin. Franklin was trained by Matt Hume so make of that what you will.
I can't say 100% that this was a work, it could just be 2 guys who aren't very good anymore, but Ken has a fishy history. I don't think Bellator knew anything about it if it was a work, just Ken taking a dive.
I can't say 100% that this was a work, it could just be 2 guys who aren't very good anymore, but Ken has a fishy history. I don't think Bellator knew anything about it if it was a work, just Ken taking a dive.
Meh. At 8:00 or so Luke starts talking about Ken "driving the hips in" during the choke sequence and that's where I don't follow him. All this business about Ken trying to "brute muscle" the technique and all that is irrelevant if Ken isn't using his hips, back, traps and everything else to help out. In order to muscle a technique you have to actually use muscle. Again, from Robin's post:
Yes, it was all hand.
A good one that shows how easy this should be is Fedor demonstrating a rnc on SportsScience. (anaconda/python/boa episode)
As darqness pointed out, the elbow is not aligned with the chin, the crutch is not under the throat.
Even if this had been positioned initially, the proper form could've been transitioned to in fractions of a second.
