Do u think Kimbo/Shamrock was a work?
- Thread starter teamquestnorth
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Well, Ken has four rnc wins on his record at some of the highest levels of competition, also forearm chokes, and a list of other types he knows. Im sure being primarily a grappeler for 30 plus years he is pretty savvy with the rnc.
@MMAHAWK showed pictures of 4 RNC finishes from Ken. 3 of them had the hand on the forehead.
Not hiding the top hand is crappy technique, but it works when your opponent is tired and already having trouble breathing. Plus when youre wearing gloves, not hiding that hand makes defending the choke a lot easier.
He did/does it a lot.
So thoughts on 3 of those chokes being the same crappy technique? Were those works as well?
For me the suspect part isn't so much the positioning of his hands, although when I saw it live I was waiting for him to switch to a better grip. Weirder was the overall effort, or lack of it I should say, put into the choke. He didn't pull back, didn't use his hips, didn't coordinate his body at all to help put pressure on the neck. The other vids of Ken finishing by RNC, he does. The Felix Lee Mitchell choke was probably his sloppiest, but even that was better than this one.
In 1993, he turned his back.
Against an exhausted Bas Rutten, he didn't even put his hooks in or try to get his arm deep enough across the neck. And of course, he put the hand on top of the head.
I'm not saying Ken didn't have technique but he definitely supplemented his game with a healthy dose of athleticism. It worked for him in the 90s (somewhat) and doesn't work for him now that he's old and small.
When was his last win by rnc? When was his last win period? When was his last fight?
So age caused him to forget how to use his body for leverage? He forgot that he has other muscles in his body besides the bicep and forearm that might be useful when applying a choke?
Well Bimbo surely isnt close or will ever be to the level of Bas. Ken being 51 im sure does take a bit out of him, but at this point who really knows other then the 2 fighters, the ones against a fix and the ones for a fix really know no more than one or the other.
Age also made him forget that when he had Kimbo flattened that punches would work
in kens heyday he was much like royce.he was subbing people who knew nothing of submissions.by the era of the tito fights the game passed him by.he came on the scene as a much better submission fighter than 99% of the others.he never evolved his game and relied on power over technique.it worked for a while .then he got old and everyone else learned sub defense
I think the issue we're having with accepting this result comes from three places:
1) If Ken made such a rudimentary mistake in his finishing a high percentage move like the RNC, he was truly never as good as we once thought him to be when SEG elevated him to the level of myth.
2) Ken himself seems to have bought into a lot of this myth in the past, most notably in Inside the Lion's Den when he basically made the argument that he never lost a fight that he didn't want to lose. This included his fairly absurd rationalizations for dropping out of UFC 3 and his paltry justifications for the "Dance in Detroit."
3) Ken has decades of history in pro wrestling.
As a result of this, there's a cloud of cognitive dissonance around all things related to Ken. It's impossible to know what to believe. I think the safest thing is to wish him a happy retirement and not watch any of his fights anymore if he engages in them.
1) If Ken made such a rudimentary mistake in his finishing a high percentage move like the RNC, he was truly never as good as we once thought him to be when SEG elevated him to the level of myth.
2) Ken himself seems to have bought into a lot of this myth in the past, most notably in Inside the Lion's Den when he basically made the argument that he never lost a fight that he didn't want to lose. This included his fairly absurd rationalizations for dropping out of UFC 3 and his paltry justifications for the "Dance in Detroit."
3) Ken has decades of history in pro wrestling.
As a result of this, there's a cloud of cognitive dissonance around all things related to Ken. It's impossible to know what to believe. I think the safest thing is to wish him a happy retirement and not watch any of his fights anymore if he engages in them.
Age and ring rust (see cain) caused him to not execute it properly.... Just like he hasn't in the past. His cardio at 51 is more than likely no where, where it used to be. And their is a reason he hasn't won in X amount of years. I understand most of us want to remember him as the younger Shamrock, but it's just jot the case.
During the fight it was my prevailing thought. Afterward I thought it was just a guy getting old.(er)
Now, I'm leaning toward my original thought, which is usually right.
Put me in that position on Kimbo and he's sleeping.
Now, I'm leaning toward my original thought, which is usually right.
Put me in that position on Kimbo and he's sleeping.
Would also love to hear
@Robin Black 's opinion on this as well. Always appreciate his input and breakdowns.
@Robin Black 's opinion on this as well. Always appreciate his input and breakdowns.
Jack Slack has a rebuttal to those doubting the fix was in:
Kimbo Slice versus Ken Shamrock: Anatomy of a Fixed Fight | FIGHTLAND
Kimbo Slice versus Ken Shamrock: Anatomy of a Fixed Fight | FIGHTLAND
Yeah, IWEI posted a thread in breathless disbelief about it. There's a bunch of MMA media sites picking it up thanks to Mr. Smith chiming in. Props.
In the most, 'How can we hide the source of this', kind of way. lol
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Another thing to consider, and while I am still sort of going back and fourth on it.
The statement "Look at the punch he took, no one does that for a fix/work"
The response to that is Dos Caras Jr. vs Cro Cop. Which hasn't Del Rio said was and is considered at this point at least a quasi-fixed fight?
Or is this still just considered "Throwin a can to the wovles?" I am not recalling the consensus.
The statement "Look at the punch he took, no one does that for a fix/work"
The response to that is Dos Caras Jr. vs Cro Cop. Which hasn't Del Rio said was and is considered at this point at least a quasi-fixed fight?
Or is this still just considered "Throwin a can to the wovles?" I am not recalling the consensus.
Fair enough, I couldn't remember what has actually been said or verified about that. For some reason I thought Del Rio had come out and said it was, but I must be misremembering.